Lobbying for the dogs...

[Novel]

Recently there was some discussion on an editorial that was in favor of banning tail docking and it started some discussion among the staff. Our discussion brought us in a round about way to starting a group that advocates the rights of the true "dog owner" whose rights in my opinion are being eroded by all of this superfluous legislation.
Here is what I thought:

Originally Posted by Novel

No I haven't, but like you I see that the gov't is eroding our private freedoms. In an effort to keep people from hurting themselves and others they've taken it upon themselves to regulate everything we do. To me it's like the mom that does everything for her children, causing them to completely reliant on her, completely irresponsible and unable to function for themselves... Sometimes I really dislike people!
No, I don't think there is anything out there like that... Want to start an activist group? I don't know how, but I know how gov't works, and the group that isn't making any noise is the group that gets walked all over... like the average american joe has been getting walked on for years!
If we're always the reactionary group, we're going to keep losing our rights, but if we're the active, out there, in your face group, we have a chance... Look at the current aniimal rights groups, like PETA... They're all mostly fruity, and they're the ones behind most of this legislation and they are the ones directing the american mind. If we had a group out there that was realistic and there to protect the true breeders, lovers of animals... I think we rely too heavily on our other pet/breed groups when they are all too busy with all their other responsibilities, but a group to tackle BSL, docking, cropping, mills and BYBers... that as their only focus, they could be powerful. Don't you think?

A response from Carrie:

Originally Posted by Carrie

Yes, good, descriptive post there Novel. You hit the nail on the head. Maybe I'll write to the AKC and start with them....see if they can tell me anything. Perhaps, since you're more familiar with breeding and maybe you know lots of breeders, you could talk to them next time you see them. I could even email some Doberman breeders. That's something we could plan out during the next week or so, plan out what to write and how to explain our position and our concerns etc. Let's keep in touch on this. It's a good idea to form up some group I think.
PS....And this isn't just between Novel and me. If any of you who read this have any suggestions or brain storms, your ideas would be most helpful.

So, with that, we decided to bring it to you as a whole group.

For a few weeks I've been thinking of starting a letter-writing campaign where each month or even week depending on the work from the members, we focus on a group, problem, mill, etc and work towards stopping, ending, changing it. This could be like that, or totally different.

I'm interested in any thoughts you may have, ideas, things to focus on, places to research, ways to get started, and on and on....

[britishbandit]

Wow, I think that's a GREAT IDEA!!! I do think however that we should tackle one issue at a time. I can see us all trying to search and come up with different things all at once, and IMO would end up in with not one issue getting enough attention, or done with the best effort.

The best place to start would be to tackle one issue in particular to start out with, and see what we can all come up with for that. There are enough people and versatility from around the world here on GP, that we could really have a good chance at making something happen, and at the very least, proposing something that will get people really thinking.

There should be a few people (would be too much for just one) to put everything together that we'd come up with for a "final copy", and maybe have all the people involved vote on it, and offer suggestions or advice on things that could be edited or changed.

All that said, count me IN!!! It would be nice to actually "do something about it".....rather than just vent about these issues we are doing very little about, but that we quite possibly could do something about with putting in the effort.

Once a issue to work on has been decided on, the ideas, things to focus on, places to research and ways to get started would be a lot easier to come up with. Each issue will need to be dealt with in it's own way, so for me the first step is "pick" which issue to start with.

[Novel]

OK, so what do we feel are the biggest issues?

Puppy mills
Tail Docking
Ear Cropping
Back Yard Breeders
Breed Specific Legislation (BSL)
Pet Stores selling puppies and kittens
What else?

And of each of these issues and more, what do we tackle amongst that large issue?

[britishbandit]

Well ultimately, all of those I'd consider big issues.

When it comes to BSL, some of the other issues factor into it. BSL is partially to be blamed on BYB, Puppy Mills and Pet Stores (but in all honesty, pet stores these days are more apt to sell "designer dogs", rather than breeds on the "dangerous dog list"), along with irresponsible owners.

"Designer Dogs" are another issue, which would likely be a toughy.

Some people have the same issues with Docking and Cropping, as well as the removal of dew claws. Claiming any of it is inhumane and causing the dog unnecessary pain. Some who only disagree with cropping.....it really ranges all over.

There are issues with people in regards to S/N. Another toughy. I've seen all kinds of "defense" against S/N.

Really, there are sooo many issues, I really couldn't say what is the biggest issue. I don't really get what you mean by "that large issue"??

[IceyBlueSibes]

This sounds like a wonderful idea! I am more than willing to help! Like BB, it will be nice to actually do something about it, instead of sit on the computer and feel upset/angry about something.

BB is right. A lot of those can be "large issues" if you really think about it.

[Novel]

I meant they are all large issues and that each large issue can be broken down into so many smaller issues, for example...

Puppy mills
Smaller issues:
--health issues; unregulated inbreeding, genetic diseases, communicable diseases
--living conditions; number of dogs in a facility, cages, water & food
--responsibility for life -or- shelter overload, can we make these places responsible for the thousands of puppies they produce, like a lemon law? Manufacturers of televisions are held to higher standards of lifetime responsibility then puppy millers.
--shutting them down... working on each state, enacting legislation... but what kind of legislation that will enable the good breeders to keep going and stop the millers... How do we decide on where to start, with which miller, and how do we stop them, besides legislation...

[calgal]

Mills are THE most important place to start. This will save virtually millions of lives if we get them all put out of business. In the meantime we can still work on the rest.

[Novel]

I agree calgal... that mills are responsible for so much heartache... but where do we start. Many organizations already work towards putting these places out of business, but they laregely seem ineffectual. One of my favorite political activists, different issues though, started a website to actually bring all of the smaller groups together. She has maps there that can point you in the direction of places in your area to get involved in, as well as thousands of links that bring each organization together.
Do you think something like that would be valuable?

[calgal]

You write letters to your states attorney, governor, congressman or woman, anyone or all in congress, the vice president, the president. You make calls (constantly) to all these people and never give up. If we run across or even know where a puppy mill is, we get friends to help us picket that place and hand out tons of flyers about those mills and what's going on in there. We picket in front (check how many feet from the door your legally able to walk) of pet stores who sell dogs and hand out tons of flyers. We send as many pictures and information about mills thru letters and e-mails as we can. We carry with us and in our car, tons of flyers to hand out to anyone we talk to, whether it's in a pet store, groc. store or any store. We also leave these flyers on the table along with a tip to the waitress at every place we eat. It's getting the word out there and on those flyers be sure to list the names, e-mail addresses and phone numbers of all the people I mentioned earlier, and BEG them to voice their opinion too. If everyone would do this, it WILL work to put a new law in the books to shut these mills down.

[Novel]

but what law....
I agree public awareness is the greatest tool. If noone bought their product, they wouldn't be able to survive... that's the meat of the issue...
but what law can be enacted? What laws are we after? What laws hurt the bad guys and keep the good guys able to do what they are doing?

[calgal]

A law that prohibits having more than two breeding females unless your showing. A law that prohibits having dogs in outside cages. A law that prohibits selling dogs and cats to pet stores or brokers etc. etc..

[Novel]

OK, first off, I'm not saying that your idea is not good calgal, I'm just playing devil's advocate...

What about if you're a field trialer? How do you prove you're showing, trialing, working your dogs? What is you raise Border Collies that work the sheep all day and sleep with them at night, or Great Pyrenees, they're not in cages, but they're not inside either. Is a pole building considered inside? What about a garage, or a porch?

The last one I agree with completely as a dog lover, but legally, how do you outlaw free enterprise? You can't say you can't sell something to so and so, but you can sell it to so and so... unless you're a foreign country and we have a trade embargo against them.

The problem with legislation is that you are talking about some people's bread and butter and they are going to find a way around the laws that are enacted. Plus, who is going to enforce these laws? Most areas don't even have an animal control officer, or they have an officer that also has those type duties, as well as their other duties. These mills aren't in Houston, Detroit and New York City where they have people like on Animal Cops. The mills are in the middle of the county that only has 14 deputies to patrol the entire county 24 hours a day, and so you may have one or two deputies working and they have to deal with drunks and domestics and bar fights, and they seriously do not have the time to get into the huge stewpot that is animal welfare...

[calgal]

First off I'd let experts sort the details that would be fair for all, but those mills MUST be shut down. I do know mills are being shut down almost daily because of infractions, so someone is definately doing their job.
"We the people" ( who look out for animal rights) would be more than happy to report any mills that are operating. Not to mention if it's illegal to mass produce dogs to sell to brokers and pet shops, then they will close.
I don't have ALL the answers and I doubt anyone has, but we need to get things rolling to stop those millers. Millers and Vets. are getting pretty darn wealthy off those poor ill bred sick babies. I'm still wondering who is turning the blind eye, and why!

[Cassiepeia]

Firstly...why have you included docking and cropping in your list?
Since you own a docked breed and Carrie owns a docked & cropped breed I'm assuming your view is that you want to stop these two things being banned, rather than stop them from being done to dogs.
You need to make clear your view or drop those two from your list. Because a huge number of dog people are against both of them (and personally I don't see how someone who is against them can't be a true dog person).

I do think that puppymills and backyard breeders (yes I believe they are both just as big a problem as each other) are the biggest issue of all and absolutely need to be addressed.

If we must encourage more rules...there should be rules about health testing, how often bitches are bred and breeding age (not breeding a bitch under 2yrs...for example).
Basically things that your average reputable breeder already does and what puppymills/byb's don't.

I have no idea how you could ever enforce it though. I don't think it's possible. Perhaps making large breeding facilities illegal? If we're going to write to anyone I think making it clear that these animals are suppose to live in the family home and interact with not just adults but children...so a good healthy start and stable environment for the dam and sire is needed to produce good pets (does that make sense?).

BSL certainly needs to be focused on. Trying to get it into people's minds that irresponsible ownership is the problem not the breeds is going to be hard, but no more difficult than the puppymill issue I guess.

I think sorting out the puppymill/byb thing will in the end help stop petshops selling animals. But people need to be made aware that a petshop isn't the only place to go for pets.

I was in a petshop *cringe* just last week looking at dog food and I overheard a conversation two teen girls were having with the teen girl at the cash register. One of the girls had asked about a display the petshop had and the shopgirl told her that people who have reptiles sometimes like to add accessories to the tanks they house them in, so the shop sold the accessories. The second teen asked "Why don't you sell the reptiles?" The shop girl said "They won't give us a license to because we're just a petshop" (Aussieland has strict rules about selling reptiles) so the teen said...and I think this sums up the public's mindset perfectly..."But where are you suppose to buy them if you can't buy them in a petshop?"

EDUCATION! Gods I scream that at people all the time. People grow up "knowing" that pet stores are the only place to get pets. This needs to change before anything else will happen.

So what I'm saying is that it's not just the 'people in charge' that should be targeted...it's the public in general. How we can do this I have no idea. Your 'average' person doesn't bother reading pet magazines...they don't care about the animals background or breeding. They don't care about anything else except..."It's cute...I want it". We dog people and other 'animal people' are just "crazy" as far as they're concerned and it often cancels out anything we have to say unfortunately. No matter how sane we really are.
If you can't change the public's view, you won't change anything, IMO.

Geez, I really went off on a mindnumbing rant here didn't I? LOL Must have low sugar or something. I think I need to go and eat something.

Cass.