Oh man here we go again....mixed breeders...

[Ritz459]

Originally Posted by strippydog

Sorry for butting in here but I´m new and just read this thread.
I have a mix that we found in a dog shelter. He is simply adorable! But I can´t say that I agree with mixing as they do it on that site.

I personally think that if you want a mix, go look in the shelters. There´s more than enough to choose from there.

Oh, yes. We weren't saying that mixed breeds are bad. I own two and they are the most wonderful dogs ever, but mixed breeding for profit when there is so many dogs in shelters that are being put down that are mixed breeds, seems stupid.

I personally think that if you want a mix, go look in the shelters. There's more than enough to choose from there.

Hear Hear!!!!

[strippydog]

[quote=Ritz459]Oh, yes. We weren't saying that mixed breeds are bad. I own two and they are the most wonderful dogs ever, but mixed breeding for profit when there is so many dogs in shelters that are being put down that are mixed breeds, seems stupid.

That´s exactly what I meant. But you said it much better than me.
And I would´nt mind someone to continue on breeding my Didi `cause I think he´s the sweetest dog ever, as are many mixes in shelters.

[LabLuver22]

BTW, RedHotDobe, I went to the White Marsh Mall today (I think we were talking about it in another thread) and stopped in their pet store. One word for it: ICK!!!! I see what you mean. Most of the puppies looked dull and lethargic, but there was one Shiba Inu puppy that was practically bouncing off the walls of his tiny cage. I took him out, and that was when it was really obvious that they didn't take good care of their puppies. He smelled horrible, and seemed very nervous and skittish. He barely let me pet him, too. Whenever I tried to pet him, he squirmed away and seemed threatened. Not the behavior I like to see in a young puppy.

[Sayuri]

Ugh - that petstores have finally gotten their filthy paws on my breed sickens me. I've seen them in my town's local petshop as well as being advertised on WOC. I wish people had never heard of Shibas - I have a sinking feeling that petstores will find them an extremely lucrative addition to their "stock." They remain cute for a long period of time before entering the "gangly" teenager stage - and even then they're pretty attractive (not that I'm biased). What's more - they're incredibly stoic. Even as pups they can and do hide pain, fear, injury, and sickness to a degree that most breeds cannot which makes them ideal petstore candidates. They make easy sales in this respect. And of course, we know of the public's fascination with anything deemed "rare." Though they're really not that uncommon in the U.S. at all (I wish they were), many people haven't yet seen one and petstores will be certain to milk this point for all it's worth - "oh! You'll be the only person you know to have this dog! It's VERY rare." Furthermore, because people haven't seen many examples of the breed, they have very little to go on as far as evaluation - they won't be able to tell what's correct on incorrect, if something looks "off," etc. And I very much doubt that petstores are telling these people about the Shibas "less than desirable traits" - are they warning them about the Shiba's need for intense socialization with children, (heck - people in general), dogs, and other animals? Are they telling people that these dogs are hunters, and as such, might find a different way to interact with the family's pet hamsters, rabbits, ferrets, etc, than the family might intend? Are they warning about potential dog-agression, especially same-sex dog aggression? What about recall? Most people enjoy having a breed that can be let off lead in a park and return reliably. If Shiba-novices aren't warned they're in for heartbreak on their fist outing - Shibas are blazing fast and take pride in being able to outdistance their owners. They will also go after anything that interests them, anything that moves - and they won't necesarily know how to find their way back. This is not a breed that generally goes well with dog-novices - yes, it can happen, but if someone is getting the dog from a petstore, the chances aren't great - especially with the added factor of potential behavioral issues.

I'm heartsick now...

[GreenleafGreyhound]

I hear that. The day I heard of a Pekingese/Poodle mix (I refuse to use the stupid names) was the day all hope left for Pekes. I can't even begin to describe the horrors that manifest my breed, today.

According to the standard, Pekes are required to have massive, wide, "envelope" heads with the face *barely* sloping from the chin backwards to the forehead. From that one description, you know that the nose is not perceptible from profile. Unfortunately, irresponsible breeding has either produced puppies with pinched nostrils or the nose is literally bred out altogether. You now see Pekes with narrow heads, no massive, undershot jaw, no wrinkle, no rectangle-ness (which is the whole essence of the Pekingese). The bulging eyes are usually set closer together, the wrinkle is non-existant, and the nose is pointed. More often than not, the ears are set back, taking away from the rectangle look, a major fault.

But alas, the one thing that ticks me off the most is the body shape of BYB-bred dogs. There's no substance to it. Along with the major faults on the head, BYB-bred dogs have no substance. Their body's are oval!!! The pear-shape, which is SO important in Pekingeses, is bred out. Pekes are supposed to LOOK light but feel heavy. BYB-bred dogs Look light and ARE light. It's rediculous! The thick forechest is supposed to lead to a nice trim waist, creating a look of bold dignity. Instead, BYB-bred dogs look like a cowering, puff of hair. Again, I commend reputable Poodle breeders/owners for their undying dedication. Their hurt is ours, too.

[LabLuver22]

I agree !00% with both of you. When I asked if they could take out the Shiba Inu puppy, they told me absolutely NOTHING about Shiba Inus. They just said, "Here you go." I think it's disgusting to rely on puppy cuteness to sell puppies.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by strippydog

I wouldn't mind someone to continue on breeding my Didi cause I think he's the sweetest dog ever, as are many mixes in shelters.

That's exactly the WRONG reason to breed a mutt or ANY dog for that matter. Not because he's sweet, everyone thinks their dog is sweet. Doesn't mean we should all go out and breed them. There are sweet dogs waiting for a home in the pounds, rescues and foster homes.

Dogs should be bred after getting titles, winning championships, etc. AND after being tested for certain things pertaining to the breed. It is in NO WAY right to breed a dog because you think he's sweet, cute or will make gorgeous puppies.


PS - I absolutely HATE the stupid names they use, I always call it by it's mix.

[oc_spirit]

Kelly, I'm with you! I can't stand the stupid names. I was sitting with a bunch of friends and one of them chirped up and said they just got a schnoodle puppy. Everyone was like what is that??? And I jumped in and was like "Schnauzer/Poodle cross, designer mutt, only born to make money so therefore wonderful candidates for bad conformation and hereditary defects, oh ya and their best trick is robbing a pound puppy from a great home so it'll get put to sleep instead" After that she didn't talk anymore about hernew puppy.....Was it a lil harsh? Probably, but it did get my point across LOL

Cheers!

[Scott & Brutus & Vin]

Yes, let me tell u about Shiba's/ My twin brother owns one, the dog's name is Tai. Tai is.....how do i put it a different dog. These dogs are beautiful, very beautiful, and that is what attracts the potential buyer....but they are not" lap dog". What i mean is if u want a loving dog that follows u around...ect Dont get a shiba. Dont get me wrong i love his dog...but im believing more each day that Shiba's are very independent and dont try to please their master..like a min schn does...Also i dont think they are vey intelligent either. Tai is a retard..This might be a generalization of the breed..but that is what i have discovered...and i took care of the dog for over 2 weeks once when my bro had to go on a business trip..So i know what i am talking about......Weird dogs..their bark is even different..the Shiba scream..Im out..........

[Scott & Brutus & Vin]

thought i throw this in there too..I wouldnt get a Shiba for a first time buyer..but i think they make a good dog for someone with exp...and they are not stupid (Tai is)...just stubborn....

[Sayuri]

I appreciate your retraction of the statement regarding the intelligence of Shibas. I've been in the breed for seven years - (not long compared to many dog people, but this IS my first breed and I've done fine because I did the research) - training, showing, and a bit of agility. I have a pet quality dog (whose name is also Tai) and a show quality b*@ch named Kimi. The two of them are highly intelligent - they've found their own ways to "train" me, taught themselves tricks and games, learn behaviors and commands quickly. Both Kimi and Tai learned commands solidly with few repetitions. The difference is that Shibas get bored - they're not content to sit for you over and over again - you have to throw something in that is challenging and new. Furthermore, they are far more interested in asking "what's in it for me" than "how may I help you." They are not "people pleasers" but highly independent animals. If you want a push button dog, don't get a Shiba. If you're afraid of being outsmarted by a dog, don't get a Shiba. (Kimi has asked me to add that if you are afraid of being outshone by your dog, don't get a Shiba...vanity, thy name is Kimi).

Some people see this independent behavior as a lack of intelligence (I've seen the same faulty argument used to describe the Afghan hound, another breed that I have an affinity for). The people that use these arguments generally don't know or understand what the dog is bred for. Shibas are wild boar hunters - these are incredibly dangerous animals to hunt. This requires the dog to be able to track and run for long distances over rough terrain (ie the Shiba must enjoy hunting, be excited to chase, have agility, and speed) and they must be able to think quickly on their feet, changing a plan of attack at the moment's notice. Would it make sense then, for this dog to stop in the middle of it's battle with an enraged boar, and look to the hunter for directions? Would the hunter even be able to give a direction better than the Shiba's own instinct supplies him? I think not. Thus - the breed uses intelligence in a different way, independent of his human companion's input. They are quick problem solvers and highly intelligent - and the people that share life with them, often as proud as the Shibas themselves, are very much insulted when it is implied that they are not smart.

As far as first time buyers - it depends on the person. Shibas are my first breed and I have had great success with them, for multiple reasons. First and foremost, I did my research - it turns out the breed fit my lifestyle more appropriately than did any other. Second, I went to the right place to get my two. Third, I typically enjoy working with challenging animals. My personality is quite similar to a Shiba's and so I enjoy and respect their independent attributes.


Finally - none of this is to say that Shibas WON'T demonstrate affection. They will - but only to people they deem worthy. You must earn the respect of a Shiba. I have several friends that have never understood this and continue to feel offended when my dogs do not fawn all over them. Some have not respected Tai and Kimi's protective instincts (both of them are extraordinarily protective - and Tai has more than proven that should I be in danger he would have no problem giving an aggressor the full wild boar treatment) and have come into my home without me there to open the door. Not a good idea with one of the primitive Japanese breeds. When I come home, on the other hand, they may as well be throwing a full welcome parade - both of them bring toys they have "killed," Tai "airplanes" (a characteristic common to happy Shibas in which they flatten their ears, squint their eyes and growl joyfully - the last part tends to scare the uninitiated), and Kimi does her best impression of the Indy 500. A few of my friends get a much more subdued version of this performance - they have earned it.

They must exhibit the characteristics the Japanese call Ryosei, Soboku, and Kan-i. These take longer to explain than I believe anyone here would like to read, as I have already written a long post, but the basic gist is that the spirited boldness of the Shiba is balanced by a good nature that makes it possible for the dog to work in partnership with someone. Working with a Shiba can only be described as a partnership - you earn the respect of a Shiba and you earn a devoted friend - but do not fool yourself into thinking he or she will ever be subservient. (I like to look at life with any breed as being this way).

You can hear about all of these things - but it's when you have a Shiba of your own that you really come to understand it.

[GreenleafGreyhound]

Very nicely done. I would go out on a limb and say that most sighthounds act similarly to the Shiba. I think people forget how important it is to research not only the breed's health problems and general temperament, but the history of the breed. There is a reason why some breeds act a certain way, and the answer lies within the reason why they were first created and what their purposes are/were.

Take a sighthound. Originally hunters, sighthounds are NOT people pleasers. Thousands of years ago, they had little to no human contact while hunting. Humans had no control over the dogs. The dogs relied on instinct and superb vision to hunt as well as they did. Simply, they were created to be independant. Independance and sensitivity are the highlights of many many sighthounds. Unforuntately, their independant nature is now deemed as being "stupid". A person once said that "Greyhounds have brains the size of a pea", just as you claim Shibas are "retarded". Even trainers call Greyhounds 'difficult' to train. I would not agree with that statement. It's all a matter of understanding your breed and your own individual dog's quirks. Every dog is motivated by *something*. Honestly, I have to say that I'm glad I have an aloof Peke and an independant Greyhound rather than your average loves-everything-GR. It fills me with pride to know that these two breeds, stubborn and independant by nature, have opened themselves up for me to see.

[oc_spirit]

Yup a Siberian Husky is a lot like a Shiba and a Greyhound in that they are stubborn and independent minded. Though they work pretty close to humans the lead dog is still the only one who can see everything clearly and know the thickness of the ice they're running across so it's up to him to safely guide the team away from thin ice or other dangers even if it means going against a musher's command.

Quote that I ue often to help explain this: "You tell a lab to turn left and he runs into the tree, you tell a husky to turn left and he'll wait for the break in the trees that's wide enough for everyone to pass safely"

Cheers!

[Ritz459]

Originally Posted by oc_spirit

Quote that I ue often to help explain this: "You tell a lab to turn left and he runs into the tree, you tell a husky to turn left and he'll wait for the break in the trees that's wide enough for everyone to pass safely"

Cheers!

LOL That is funny......but so true..... I don't like the 'robot' kind of dogs. I like the dogs that are very intelligent (can think things through), might take a while to trian, but when they are trained, the will be awsome. (Like a Boxer, GSD, Dobe.....)
I compare intelligent dogs that are hard to trian, to cats. (Sorry dogs! lol ) Cats are very smart (IMO) but they don't care what you say or tell them to do.
Take this morning for an example. I was trying to get Rush (my 11yr old Tabby cat) to come to me. He just sat there, about 5 ft away from me, looking at me. I was like, "COME HERE you stupid cat!" He just kept looking at me. (I swear with an evil look on his face saying, "Pethetic human. I do what I want to." lol) Finally I said, "If you don't come you are as dummer then a dog!" He looked at me and started walking to me. lol

(And another note on cats: My 9yr old sister JeanAnne loves cats. She asked me why cats thought they were gods. (I had read her that thing that said the difference between the dogs and the cats.) I then said, 'Because the Eygptians used to worship them and the cats have never forgot it.' lol)

[Carrie]

That is so not true of a Lab. Look at how wonderful they are at retrieving water fowl or upland birds. They most certainly do think things through. Look at all the many services they are trained in; seeing eye, hearing, scenting explosives, drugs, other handicap work, search and rescue. They don't use every breed for that. It's also on account of their wonderful temperament. They do not run into trees. They are willing to please and very intelligent. My Bonnie learned her basic obedience within two weeks. Labs are the 7th on the intelligence studies I've seen.

I've had a lot of dogs and Bonnie was the easiest to train, not quite as quick on the trigger as Lyric, but darn close and much more able to pay attention. Of course, he's a higher energy dog and bred for different things that a Lab. And he's young. I think he'll be great too. I've been so lucky to have such a wonderful dog. I love Labs.