Dogs Are Amazing

[Carrie]

When you think about it, dogs really are an evolutionary marvel. They've been domesticated for a really, really long time....that is, compared to a lot of things. But, of course, in eveolutionary time, not so very long. Ok....this perhaps is sounding a bit disjointed. What I'm trying to say is, isn't it amazing how they've changed and adapted over time? They are incredibly opportunistic....(large parasites really) that have evolved into our best friends. And evolved into something so very different than their ancestors, albeit not so differently genetically.

Are wolves really, for sure their ancestors? Or could it be some other wild dog that evolved parallel to the wolf and not decended from it? I've read some controversy on this topic along with some pack theory ideas that challenge so much of what has been thought before.

This is not meant to be an argumentative debate or a contest between egos. This thread is designed by me to be a discussion of ideas, to be put forth on this subject and any articles or links to be contributed that may be of interest.

We could spend some time on this thread examining what transpired and do some research along the way. Does anyone have anything to offer to make this into a more intelligent conversation than it has started out? LOL. It is a subject that is quite interesting I think...once you get into it.

[DarknessDivine]

I have read in several places that the domesticated dogs ancestors could come from a varity of breeds. There was one study that said that they found remains of dogs and they said

The skulls of two Stone Age dogs believed to be the earliest known canines on record have been found, according to a team of Russian scientists.
"We suggest that the dogs looked like present-day Tibetan mastiffs or Caucasian sheep dogs," Sablin told Discovery News. "The dogs had a much wider palate and shorter rostrum than Siberian huskies and Great Danes. The reconstructed withers height is about 70 cm (27.56 inches), therefore the dogs belonged to a very strange and dangerous heavy hunting/guarding breed."

Source
It's a good read...

[Global Paw]

Ah Carrie, a very good topic.

In my opinion, yes, dogs are wolves...yet select wolves learned due to their location that work around humans would heed more food...therefore we see the first break from modern wolf and dog. We'll call this second wolf "wolf B", wolf A and wolf B are identicle, yet wolf B interact with humans in their camps for foodstuffs and an easier life. Wolf A, because of their location, does not interact with humans as much and thus continues on the trach of natural selection.

Wolf B, is in the company of humans, yet they are not companions. The main purpose of Wolf B is a scavenger of human camps, which can help to explain the break from major pack mentality. Yet, we still see a stong pack sense in loose dogs in inner cities, for example.

Humans, being smart, take wolf B, and through artificial selection, begin to breed dogs with mutations in their genes. Mutations occur naturally in all species, yet usually die off in the wild, or continue to breed and form new species or subspecies. However, because man has replaced nature, man eventually evolves wolf B into 400 distinct breeds, all resulting from the breeding of original clans of wolves who came into contact with humans.

Thus:

Wolf A -> No contact with humans -> remains on track with natural selection.

Wolf B -> Contact with humans -> Those with less of a pack mentality are more likly to hang around human camps -> Mates to pass on genes -> selective breeding by humans lead to mutation and breeding.

This explains why a poodle and a mastif can mate and have fertile children. Also, if you breed a wolf with a dog, they also produce fertile children, which proove that they are the same creature.

[oc_spirit]

Another argument to help support the dogs are derived from wolves is brought forth by taking a walk and having a quick chat with any elder from a Chukchi tribe who can tell you the story of how they developed the HUsky. I would retell the story but I have only heard it once and fear since I only know the jist of the story, my retelling would be a mutilated version and would hate for it to be told wrong. However the basics of it is that the camps had wolves always scavenging for food and they decided to form a partnership with wolf and wolf offered to them it's best companions and they bred the best pullers and reindeer herders of wolves and created the Husky. Of course in the story there are telling of the Wolf having a spirit and the Creator assisting them with developing a relationship with the Wolf etc but if you take that out there's still a reality behind it.

Hmmm does this make any sense? LOL My mind is elsewhere today so I appologize if it doesn't......

Cheers!

[oc_spirit]

Oh ya and I agree! Dog's are truly amazing, whether or not they came from wolves! LOL

Cheers!

[Carrie]

Oh, I do believe they came from wolves, but what wolves. There is evidence, apparently to suggest that they came from Aisian type wolves which are like smaller dogs, such as dingos and some others and not from the Timber wolf or those that look like Huskeys.

Here's something else pretty interesting:

http://www.kc.net/~wolf2dog/wayne1.htm

[His masters voice]

Originally Posted by Carrie

When you think about it, dogs really are an evolutionary marvel.......... What I'm trying to say is, isn't it amazing how they've changed and adapted over time?

I disagree on this point, Ok there is little doubt or ground to debate over the fact that they are the most domesticated animal of our time.

However, you must first ask yourself why they are so incredible, this is no wonder of nature or a gift from god to mankind. And I also believe that within the next few centuries they will return to the wolves they once were.
Let me explain myself.

When mankind was in the early stages of caveman catching food was no easy task, most animals where quicker and more agile than himself. Armed with little more than a stick with a piece of flint tied to it, he soon came to realize that in order to be an affective hunter he required assistance. The bond with wolves was formed.

This was not the bond we have today, there was no love and no sentiment for the animal. It was a purely working relationship, the tamed wolf did the trapping/killing and in return was given a percent of the kill to eat. It now stands to reason that by breeding the best trappers and killers you are going to increase your chances of having a good "killing stock" (for want of a better term). This was mans first Genetical interference with nature.

For centuries we have done this, breeding small dogs for catching vermin, large dogs for hunting, we have even taught them to hunt lions (Rhodesian Ridge backs). We have made the sky the limit for tampering with dogs for our own cause. They have "changed and adapted" because we have forced it upon them. In effect we have produced the Arian race of wolves. Adapt or die leaves little scope for choice.

In the last century man has developed tenfold, the introduction of modern day machinery, genetic farming and other agricultural advancements has left our four legged friend redundant. He is now simply a pet. I predict that in the next few centuries this practice will cease. For the last 50 years dogs have been little more than a companion. With the introduction of computers, game consoles and stresses of work people are finding less and less time for dogs. When I was a child, I loved taking the dog for a walk (and still do) but ask a child now if given a choice between the computer/game console, TV or walking the dog which he would choose, and walking the dog would come in last place. Sad but true! It is now just a question of time before they are no longer pets and once again return to the wild.

The world will move on, it always has and always will, Niel Armstong did not say " one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind (and half a step back again because I love my dog). Unfortunately the modern day dog has seen it's day.

[milo]

Wow god i wouldnt of think that!!Great topic Carrie!!Oh and great pic of it too!!

[Ritz459]

Well, I don't agree with all of the 'evolution' stuff (i.e. People evolving from monkies, and the monkies evolving from algea or whatever) because I am a Christian, and even if I weren't, that would still sound very far fetched to me.

But, I do believe that the dogs were bred down from wolves or other wild dogs. Being bred down and evolving is two diff things, IMO. Being bred down is people selecting which dogs to breed and whichs ones not to. It doesn't happen by random chance. Anyways, doesn't the Aussie Cattle Dog have Dingo in it? And the Pixie-Bob cat has Bobcat in it. Just what type of wolves were our dogs ancesters exactly nobody knows .

[Carrie]

Well then, isn't man amazing? LOL. That's true. I agree with that also Matt. But I still think dogs have been very adaptable as well to have been able to become what they are today, to have let themselves be manipulated to becoming the extreme domestic animals they are.

Most scientists think that they gathered around the camp where early man fed them and took in stray puppies whom they domesticated. It's been a synergistic relationship. And I don't think domestic dogs will return to being wolves. We won't let them.

[oc_spirit]

I don't think dogs will return to the wild either to be honest...sure kids are lazy these days but families are still owning pets and the pet industry is actually one of the fastest growing industries because there are more and more pet powners wanting to pamper their pet. If it were statistically true that less and less people were owning dogs there wouldn't be as big of a problem with puppy mills because the money wouldnt be there for them. Also isn;t it like 1 out of every 3 families in the US owns at least one dog? Back in the day it wasn;'t like that at all....most of the dogs were strays running around the streets.

Cheers!

[Carrie]

http://www.workingdogweb.com/DogOrigins2.htm

I think this is an interesting thing. If it's too long, just skim it. There are some things that might catch your eye.

[His masters voice]

Originally Posted by oc_spirit

If it were statistically true that less and less people were owning dogs there wouldn't be as big of a problem with puppy mills because the money wouldnt be there for them. Also isn;t it like 1 out of every 3 families in the US owns at least one dog? Back in the day it wasn;'t like that at all....most of the dogs were strays running around the streets.

Cheers!

Puppy mills in one form or another have been there for centuries, the motives where different. It is only in the last century that money was a motivation to breed, but the breeding conditions of puppy mills was always there.

Your statement "Also isn't;t it like 1 out of every 3 families in the US owns at least one dog? " is very true but shouldn't be taken at face value. BTW I could arrange the to read ... two thirds of Americans refuse to have a dog. Same statistics but doesn't sound quiet so glorified.

In the case of this statement one has to look at the statistics behind the statistics. The average family consists of 2.5 children. The point 5 is what matters. A generation is 23 years this means every 46 years we have increased the population by 50% an alarming rate of increase.

Dogs on the other hand or now been bred more selectively, people are more aware of dog over population. Shelters have a neuter before sell policy and dog contraception is becoming more widely available. Puppy mills only account for a very very small % of the whole picture. They are on the decline.

[BXRchic]

When mankind was in the early stages of caveman catching food was no easy task, most animals where quicker and more agile than himself. Armed with little more than a stick with a piece of flint tied to it, he soon came to realize that in order to be an affective hunter he required assistance. The bond with wolves was formed.

...really? what about the tools in hunting (aside from the stick/flint)...
I went to a pretty bad school, but they painted this image of people using tools/traps to hunt animals.
Wolves killed stuff for humans and how did the humans get the food afterwards? How'd they scare off the wolves?
(not arguement... just really misled, I suppose)

[Crossfire Bulldogs]

Originally Posted by Carrie

Well then, isn't man amazing? LOL. That's true. I agree with that also Matt. But I still think dogs have been very adaptable as well to have been able to become what they are today, to have let themselves be manipulated to becoming the extreme domestic animals they are.

Most scientists think that they gathered around the camp where early man fed them and took in stray puppies whom they domesticated. It's been a synergistic relationship. And I don't think domestic dogs will return to being wolves. We won't let them.

But wouldn't it have been the dogs who invited humans to stay in their caves?