I got BIT

[crazy_puppy]

Hi all Im new here.
I joined this forum today becouse of a very odd incident that has happened to me this afternoon.
My 7 month old working line GSD jumped out of the car window after a rabbit. I ran after her through the woods and finally caught her, I went to give her a correction and she bit me as I reached for her prong collar. I have been working her in ScH(just building drives and some basic OB) , but I do believe she is far too young to be having that behaviour (handler aggression).

Im wondering what caused this behaviour and if its fixable.

Does this mean she has no future in ScH?

P.S she bit HARD I had blood everywhere.

[D.Schäferhund]

Hello
Can you give a little more details, how and where, in wich dirction from you was she when you grabed her. what exactly did happen what did you do afterwards.???

[crazy_puppy]

She was sitting in the passengers seat, the window was down. I was un-doing my seat belt and all of a sudden she jumped out the window and was chasing a rabbit into the woods. I have never seen a dog run so fast.



I was coming from the right diagonally(up hill), she was searching for the rabbit, nothing could get her focus off the trail. She did not pay attention to me AT ALL when I gave her commands and acted as if I were cheering her on or perhaps not there at all!

I finally got her attention with a sharp whistle and authoritive command. She started coming my way and zipped right by me, nose to the ground. She circled me and was on her way. I grabbed and told her to lay down, she complied (I had her by the neck as that was all I could grab at the time). Once she was on the ground I went to reach for her collar to give her a correction, As I reached for her, she turned her head around and bit my thumb. I corrected her instantly. I told her to kno zay and we walked up to the house. She did obey but was still very focused on finding the Rabbit. When we got inside I cleaned my wound and put her in a submissive position.

As soon as she got up she started staring me down! Of course I stared at her until she looked away.

This day was shocking.

[elegy]

i think you set up a very bad situation for your dog. she's seven months old. she's a PUPPY. she did a puppy thing. ok, so it was bad and dangerous, but i don't understand why you allowed a situation where she *could* jump out of a car window!

then, when you caught her, and told her to lay down, she COMPLIED. this is NOT the time for a correction!! there is no way this pup is going to connect your prong collar correction with jumping out the car window and chasing a bunny. she's going to connect it to coming back to you and doing what you said.

i'm sure she's been corrected before. i'm sure she knows it hurts. i think what she did was purely defensive and quite honestly, a reasonable response in her situation.

i agree that she's too young for handler aggression, but i also think she's too young for harsh corrections from a prong collar as well.

[Lexus11]

I have to agree, I'm sorry you were bit, but you got her back, even if it took a while to get a hold of her. In all honesty, IMO, she shouldn't have been corrected after you got her back. Imagine in her mind, what was the action she performed JUST prior to being corrected? Yes, returning to her owner, allowing herself to be caught and lying down on command. Doing all that in her mind, just got herself a punishment. So I have to back elegy up, she shouldn't have bit, but she was getting punished for, in her mind, doing exactly what you told her to do.

[bigdoglover]

I agree with everyone here. She thought she was being corrected for the last action performed. She knew you were upset, and reacted to it.

Training can be difficult when you are trying to get your timing down. Just keep in mind the dog does not think like us. She thought she was being corrected for coming back, not chasing the bunny.

[crazy_puppy]

Thank you all, I know most of my dogs mistakes are 90% handler error (something Im working on I guess I was just so frazzled I didnt know what to do. You guys are right I shouldnt have given her the chance to jump out of the window. I know that I accidently set this mis-hap up.

I wasnt sure what was going on, I thought I had a rank dog for a couple hours!!

So what Im getting from you guys is that she reacted normally for a working puppy?

So I can continue with ScH? Or should I stop dead in my tracks?

She was bought from a respected breeder for ScH, I dont know why I wanted the "best" to start with, but I sure got what I was looking for.

I am new to ScH and not very use to the way these dogs act, its very different from any other type of dog IMO, so I am still learning.

I heard that Czech dogs are a little more sharp then most other types, is there any truth to this?

About the prong collar, I didnt think it was right at first either. My training director reccomended using a prong collar on her for better control.

[crazy_puppy]

Just to clarify something, every BIT of training we do is under the direction and supervision of a ScH trainer, except for building prey drives.

She has not done anything(as far as training goes) that a normal 7 month old puppy involved in ScH wouldnt do, no bitework, nadda. Just a little bit of tracking here and there(not actual tracking just piddling around), and of course building prey drive.

[Pugdawg1]

I do agree with the others.. I do think it was a mistake to correct a dog, after catching them like that. Sure won't make it any easier for the next time.. dog figures if owner catches them, they'll get corrected. Seems that would defeat the purpose.

[Novel]

Since you asked for opinions, I'll give you my own thoughts...

Originally Posted by crazy_puppy

Thank you all, I know most of my dogs mistakes are 90% handler error (something Im working on

In my experience, any problems are 100% handler error. Dogs act like dogs and react to how we interact with them. If, as you say, this dog is from well bred lines, then you're not dealing with any temperament problems, it is all handler error. Think about it, what kind of errors does a dog make?? Not acting like a dog?? Accepting handler error is a shot to the ego, but absolutely necessary if you are going to train this dog well. Everything you do will effect your dog, EVERYTHING, for the good or bad.

I guess I was just so frazzled I didnt know what to do.

That is one of the dangers of dog training. Just as you expect your dog to be calm, collected, obedient and "not frazzled", you can expect nothing less from yourself. You must always be in control. Now, I will say that I am not always in control. If something happens to get my hackles up, and I feel that I am about to act in a way that will negatively effect my dogs, I MUST stop working with my dogs immediately!! Again, I know that you had an emergency on your hands, but, when you caught up with her, and you knew that you were upset, you should have just sat still with her in your control until you had a handle on yourself. No correction when one is needed will do less damage then a correction when one is not needed.

You guys are right I shouldnt have given her the chance to jump out of the window. I know that I accidently set this mis-hap up.

I'm glad that you understand that. Really, if you have a working GSD, or any dog for that matter in a vehicle, it should be properly restrained in a crate, at all times. Dogs are injured all the time from jumping out of vehicles, getting injured in minor and major vehicular accidents, injuries from sudden braking and swerves, and being hit by bugs and other particles when they have their heads out the window. All can maim or kill your dog. A crate is a good investment if you are going to be traveling with your dog. I was rear ended a few weeks ago, in a construction site, and Topper was with me. Had he not been in his crate, we would have both sustained injuries. A 75lb projectile in your vehicle is a serious threat to you! That said, make sure that you secure the crate to the vehicle. My van has great cargo D-rings for just that type of thing.

I wasnt sure what was going on, I thought I had a rank dog for a couple hours!!

Always examine your own actions first. It is easy to blame the dog, but, for the most part, dogs simply react to their environment and surroundings, and this includes training.

So what Im getting from you guys is that she reacted normally for a working puppy?

She reacted normally for any dog. The working lines made her more intense on the "prey" and so, until you have complete control over her via verbal commands, you will need to protect her, and your training. An incident like this could completely foil all of your previous training. Think about what you just told us. You have been working on drive. She just showed you drive, and you punished her! Punished her to the point where she bit!! She is one confused pup right now, and you owe her an apology. If someone took you out to play basketball every day, and you loved it and were really getting into it, and one day you saw a game going on your block and you ran to join in, and you were yelled at for it, you probably wouldn't be as likely to play basketball again!
You have a puppy, and these are very formative months. It will be easier to turn her off of the work you want her to do at this time, then any other later stage of her life.

So I can continue with ScH? Or should I stop dead in my tracks?

Continue with ScH if you think you are ready to. This incident showed you that you need to work on your thought processes when it comes to training. Training is not only at training times, it is constant. A step back with the dog, and increased focus on your own training may be in order.

She was bought from a respected breeder for ScH, I dont know why I wanted the "best" to start with, but I sure got what I was looking for.

This statement is difficult for me. We all want to believe that our dogs are the best, and that we purchased from respected breeders, but... very few breeders of working line dogs would place their valuable pups in the hands of a newbie. There is nothing wrong with wanting the best, but, starting with a working breed that is a little bit easier, a little less hard or sharp, is really the preferred way. Starting with the "most difficult" is often a recipe for disaster. Many seasoned trainers will tell you that some working lines are beyond even their skills, and the odds that you produce an awesome dog through your training are slim, and the odds that you produce a dog that is worthless are considerably higher if you do not match your skills with the dog that you plan to buy.

I would never recommend a Weimaraner to a first time dog owner. Most dog owners simply can not handle a Weim, especially its first few years. Those dog owners, someday, with appropriate training and experience may become good Weim owners, but, not at first. Understanding your limitations are incredibly important. Again, not good for the ego, but dog training, and especially ScH are NOT about EGO!

I am new to ScH and not very use to the way these dogs act, its very different from any other type of dog IMO, so I am still learning.

Again, with what I've written above, I think inexperience and ScH training are incredibly foolish and sometimes incredibly dangerous. Everyone has to start out with ScH at some point, but that should be after years of working with dogs in other aspects, not just dog ownership, but training, in agility, tracking, obedience, etc, and then, starting with ScH.

I heard that Czech dogs are a little more sharp then most other types, is there any truth to this?

It all depends on the lines, and many trainers will tell you that a "sharp" dog comes with its own set of problems and rewards. And a "sharp" dog does not necessarily mean "better".

About the prong collar, I didnt think it was right at first either. My training director reccomended using a prong collar on her for better control.

I have no problems with prong collars. They are better than chain collars, WHEN used by those trained in their use. Prong collars in the hands of the inexperienced can cause damage to the dog, and to the prong collars reputation, faster than the blink of an eye. A prong collar should be properly fit to the dog, and it is a training collar. She should NOT be wearing it when you're riding in the car. What if she had jumped out and gotten hung up at any point? Training collars are for just that, training!! If your dog is not training it should not have a training collar on. If it has a collar on at all at other times, it should be a flat buckle type collar, nothing else!!

[crazy_puppy]

Thank you Novel,

I have a few questions for you. I have a very very small car not nearly big enough for a large crate to sit in it, I have heard of doggy seatbelts. I was wondering If I should look into getting one of those for her.Does anyone use these? Are they safe?

You have been working on drive. She just showed you drive, and you punished her! Punished her to the point where she bit!! She is one confused pup right now, and you owe her an apology

Im sorry I must not have been clear on that, I went to reach her collar to correct her and she bit me before I could get her collar, now after she bit me I corrected her.

This statement is difficult for me. We all want to believe that our dogs are the best, and that we purchased from respected breeders, but... very few breeders of working line dogs would place their valuable pups in the hands of a newbie. There is nothing wrong with wanting the best, but, starting with a working breed that is a little bit easier, a little less hard or sharp, is really the preferred way.

Oh I will be the first to say she was not the best in her litter...not even close. What I ment is her bloodlines are very esteemed, and IMO some of the best you can get. I know my pup isnt the greatest but Im biased.... to me she is the best GSD ever bred, shes my baby.


I have trained loving companions and titled a few dogs in my day so Im not some punk that wants to teach a dog how to bite and attack people. But I am inexperienced with raising and owning a ScH dog, which is why we belong to a club and train under IMO a very good experienced trainer. I would not try to go about raising this puppy without a proffessional's guidance. I am trying my hardest to raise this pup into a great dog.
I learn something new everyday

About the prong collar, My trainer had advised me to ALWAYS keep a prong collar on this dog unless she is at home. When out and about I was told to keep the collar on her. I dont argue with my trainer about things like that, unless I am completly certain that he is wrong. I am not thoroughly educated on the prong collar, I do know that it is safer then using a choke chain.
I was wondering about agitation collars, would one of those be easier on my pups neck? Can they wear an agitation collar 24/7?



All is forgiven between my pup and I, we're going to the park today for a play date.

I tell you though, that little incident sure woke me up, I will be changing my methods and thinking, properly.

[elegy]

Originally Posted by crazy_puppy

About the prong collar, My trainer had advised me to ALWAYS keep a prong collar on this dog unless she is at home. When out and about I was told to keep the collar on her. I dont argue with my trainer about things like that, unless I am completly certain that he is wrong. I am not thoroughly educated on the prong collar, I do know that it is safer then using a choke chain.

i would run away fast from a trainer like this. to be honest, i'm not too tweaked on the idea of prong collar corrections like that on such a young dog at this point in her training anyway. but then again, i'm of the opinion that dog sports, even bite sports, should be *fun* for the dog as well as for the human.

[shandoggy1]

There is nothing wrong with the prong collar when used correctly. I find them to be a must with a high energy high drive dog. I recently started my 5 month old Australian Cattle dog with one and what a difference walking him "no more pulling"! He heels really well and after one week of using it he doesn't even pull with just his regular collar. Its not the type of collar to use to yank or pull your dog by the neck with because that is when you can really hurt them. They are not a collar for the unexperienced and alot of people think they are cruel to use. Personally I find a regular choke chain to be cruel because it does exactly what it is called and"CHOKES"your dog. I just can't believe your trainer told you to keep the prong on her at all times that's crazy!

[Novel]

Originally Posted by crazy_puppy

Thank you Novel,

I have a few questions for you. I have a very very small car not nearly big enough for a large crate to sit in it, I have heard of doggy seatbelts. I was wondering If I should look into getting one of those for her.Does anyone use these? Are they safe?

You're most welcome! I used to use a seat belt/harness with my first Weim, but you have to have a pretty calm dog or you're constantly turning around untangling them!

Im sorry I must not have been clear on that, I went to reach her collar to correct her and she bit me before I could get her collar, now after she bit me I corrected her.

IMO, reaching for her could easily be construed by her as a correction. I'm sure your body language had made it quite clear that you were not happy, and as she saw it, you were coming in for a strike/bite, and so she defended herself. Again, this is hypothesis on myself, I obvioulsy wasn't there!

Oh I will be the first to say she was not the best in her litter...not even close. What I ment is her bloodlines are very esteemed, and IMO some of the best you can get. I know my pup isnt the greatest but Im biased.... to me she is the best GSD ever bred, shes my baby.

To each his own! Good bloodlines are important, no doubt about it! I do not want to damper your enthusiasm for your girl at all. Someday, I will get a dog that I can train in Schutzhund, however right now is not that time!

I have trained loving companions and titled a few dogs in my day so Im not some punk that wants to teach a dog how to bite and attack people. But I am inexperienced with raising and owning a ScH dog, which is why we belong to a club and train under IMO a very good experienced trainer. I would not try to go about raising this puppy without a proffessional's guidance. I am trying my hardest to raise this pup into a great dog.
I learn something new everyday

I'm sorry to imply that you were a punk. I guess it's better to be safe than sorry, and I didn't know your background. Sorry if I sounded like I was coming down a bit hard, but, this forum allows me to be quite opinionated. It makes me happy to know that you have experience with dogs!

About the prong collar, My trainer had advised me to ALWAYS keep a prong collar on this dog unless she is at home. When out and about I was told to keep the collar on her. I dont argue with my trainer about things like that, unless I am completly certain that he is wrong. I am not thoroughly educated on the prong collar, I do know that it is safer then using a choke chain.
I was wondering about agitation collars, would one of those be easier on my pups neck? Can they wear an agitation collar 24/7?

To be completely honest, I have no experience with an agitation collar, and so cannot give you any advice in that area. And I will disagree with your trainer about ALWAYS keeping the training collar on. Unless he has given you some reasoning, I can think of no reason to always leaving it on. It can cause damage too easily, and the purpose of the training collar is to train with the dog, and the prong collar is designed to get the dog's attention, with minimum amount of force. Leaving it on all the time is desensitizing your dog to the collars correction ability. If your dog is not manageable, than you need to find yourself another trainer.
At 7 months, you're not doing much ScH work, as the dogs brain isn't ready, yet the dog should mind you. Puppy basics should include recall, sit, etc at this point, quite reliably. If those are not reliable yet, then that needs to be your focus. Again, all is just my opinion!!

[bigdoglover]

As for the prong collar, my GS only wears it during training. But she is also SchH II, and well versed in verbal commands. She knows when that prong collar goes on, it's time to work and she gets excited!! I've never had to harshly correct her with it, just touching it and she knows. Now let me clarify something, she came to me already trained, I personally didn't train her. As a matter of fact, she has trained me!! Schutzhund is a fun sport, and I think both you and your dog will thouroghly enjoy it. Have you checked out www.leerburg.com ? Great site with many books and DVDs on Schutzhund.