Questions about the pack

[Teckel]

Hello people, my first post here!

I just got a Dachshund (8 weeks) 2 days ago. So far its going good, havent had that many 'toilet accidents' since I am very aware of her giving out sings when she needs to go... But! I was reading through some articles on the internet that said it is absolutley critical that you establish youself as a pack leader although didn't go into much detail. So I searched this forum but didn't find anything so I am asking: In what concrete steps do I establish myself as pack leader?

Teckel

[bigdoglover]

There are several ways to go about doing this, but it basically comes down to your body language, mood, and making the dog earn food, rubs, and treats.

You can start by not letting your pup sleep in bed with you. Pack leaders, or packs in general, don't all sleep together. Also, the leader eats first, and well, does everything first.

That is the stringent part of being a leader. Some folks are not so harsh, to include myself. However, one thing I don't do is get down below them.....my head/body is always above my dogs. Also, just because they come up to me, doesn't mean they get rubbed....they must sit, or something of that nature to earn the rub.

That is a basic overview, others here can go into greater detail than I can!

By the way....welcome to GP!!

[Teckel]

Tanks for the advice mate, some of the stuff you mention I actually do such as eating first, making the dog sleep in a crate, walk through doors me first dog second etc...

Btw, the dog just laied down on my feets when I'm at the computer. Is this a sign of submission or does it just want comfort?

[bigdoglover]

More for comfort because of his age. But let him just lay there, don't coddle him. You're doing good so far!

[calgal]

I would be picking that baby up and giving him tons of hugs and kisses. I've always just treated my dogs like babies. I don't read much into the alpha thing with the tiny dogs anyway. Haven't seen any that has turned against the family either and to most people, they are just one of the kids.

[Biscuit]

I always just treated my Dachshund normally, he got treats for going outside to do his business, was crate trained until he was not making anymore messes in the house, (he now sleeps in bed with us), he's open bowl fed, but never exceeds the reccomended amount of food in a day. Between my husband and I he's taken me as pack leader, and I think the only reason for this is I'm the one who is always available to fulfill his needs.

[IceyBlueSibes]

You can help establish yourself by making your puppy earn things. Make him sit before he gets a pat on the head.. make him sit before he gets his food... before going outside, etc. I believe most of the time dogs really don't have too much trouble determining who is the leader. There are the occassional few that have some trouble seeing it, but I think as long as you don't COMPLETELY baby your dog (don't train him, allow him to do whatever he wants, etc.) that he should be just fine. It sounds like you're doing a good job already!

[britishbandit]

Pretty much the same thing as everyone else here...LOL.
But using NILIF (nothing in life is free), is and has been the best for me and my dogs when it comes to determining "rankings" in the household. Everything they want and need, they need to "work" for...nothing big......a simple "wait" for food, or to go outside......a "sit" for petting, or a toy.....etc...

[Carrie]

Here's the way I see it....I highly recommend reading these links.


http://www.barry.eaton.clara.net/pack_leader.htm


http://www.showdogs.co.za/wag_the_dog/dominance.htm

[flyndog]

One 8 week old puppy and one human do not make a "pack"!

Your puppy is laying at your feet because is is comforting to be near you. Dogs *do* sleep close. The best reasons for not letting your puppy sleep in your bed with you now is that he is not housetrained and you might squish him. It has nothing to do with being a leader. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I do not agree that feeding yourself before you feed your dog has any influence in establishing yourself as a leader. Actually, owners who insist on eating before their puppy are exhibiting dysfunctional pack behavior. "Alpha" wolves do not necessarily eat first. If there’s lots of food, everybody eats. If there is little food, whoever gets and keeps the food wins – usually higher ranking wolves win. If there are puppies, they eat first because adults regurgitate the food for them.

[GSD]

So for those saying that dogs are not pack animals and they don't follow pack orders and they don't see pack leaders in humans, could you explain why so many people have problems with their dogs with one member of the family and not the other. The dog listens beautifully to the husband or wife, but will only listen to the other if a big raw steak is sitting in front of their nose.

Could you explain why some dogs will take very dominant postures over little children and babies if given the chance?? (most people think this is very cute by the way, even though it is very dangerous)

So somebody says that eating before your dog isn't very useful ( I personally don't think its a big deal either, but does that throw the last 100 years or more of research showing all the ways dogs behave like pack animals??

[flyndog]

I preach that dominance is a function of relationship - which explains why *some* dogs listen to *some* people but not others - regardless of their size. *Some* dogs see children and babies as prey objects - again a function of relationship.

I'm the one who said that eating before one feeds their dog is not very useful in establishing one's social status and is dysfunctional wolf pack behavior - if one is basing dog behavior on wolf behavior. I would not suggest throwing out the last 100 years of research! At the same time, I would encourage keeping up with the latest research. Where would we be if we clinged only to the oldest research about anything?

I think it is important that dogs are allowed to be dogs. They are very good at being *dogs*. Dogs are unique among other animals. But, dogs need guidance to learn to live happily with people (and vice versa).

IMHO strategies based on the concepts of dominating a puppy or being "alpha" to your dog rely on fear. Fear gets in the way of learning. It eats away at a puppy's feelings about safety and helps to destroy the bond between dog and owner. No one in their right mind wants to create a fearful puppy. Owners need to understand that to dogs there is a difference between an effective teacher (or trainer) and a petty, scary, inconsistent and ineffective clod.

Oops! LOL! Excuse my rant!

[Carrie]

Absolutely Kit. I wish people would get off this kick about trying to act like wolves. First, dogs aren't wolves living out in the woods. We're not wolves living in the wild. Secondly, people can not act like wolves anyhow! Why does all this stuff keep perpetuating? Eat first? Go out a door first? Be at a higher elevation than your dog? Good heavens. I've never thought a thing about any of this and my dogs have all turned out just fine. Normally, most of the time, alpha wolves couldn't care less about any of that. They don't order other wolves around all day long. They're not even always in a pack all day long. LOL.

Sure, most dogs are descended, (in some cases more directly than others)... from wolves. They retain many instincts and traits. But domestic dogs are different from wolves. There are many unique things dogs do in relation to understanding humans that wolves do not do. Recent observation and scientific study has indicated that even wolf packs are much more loose than was formerly thought. So it is incongruous and complicated to create such a strong concern, stringent orchestration and excessive worry about dominance of our dogs' every conceivable behavior.

There have been huge advances in the understanding of how canines learn, operate and how best to mold a pet dog into a well mannered, responsible member of our families. After all, dog and wolf packs mostly consist of that...a family, rather small and ever changing. Young wolves, when of age go off and form their own families. It's not usually some huge number of unrelated animals. There's order and there's communication, but there aren't all the many complex facets of behavior going on that we create by living with dogs...we as humans co-existing with another specie.


And one other thing....domestic dogs are the equivelant of wolf pups. Adult wolves do not play as much as our dogs do as adults. We too, are the equivelant of other primate youth. Adult apes do not play as much as we do as adults. There's a term for that. I forget what it is. We and dogs are thought to be the only "animals" with this unique trait. Or at least one of very few. (I forget that too) Anyhow, that in itself lessens the importance of this paranoia of our dogs becoming "dominate" over us. Of course, they can as Kit mentioned....it's a relationship issue. However, to think that every misbehavior is due to dominance or a dog conspiring to become "alpha" is false. This happens, but rarely. Misbehavior is primarily due to undertraining.

They're social and so are we and that's why we form strong bonds with one another. But... the ways of interacting with them as an order, heirarchy or social structure with non-conspecifics do not equal some of the charades that many people have been mislead into thinking are the ways of dogs. So many of these rituals are inaccurate and irrelevant as far as dogs' or wolves' understanding or relevancy. Taking wolf studies which have since been shown to be inaccurate and unscientifically performed from a small group of captive wolves in a short period of time.... and building a whole training or interacting philosophy on such a weak foundation is ignorant and is still continuing, despite much more thorough, researched and properly carried out studies.

Why do people have problems with their dogs? Why do people have problems with their kids? They fail to set boundaries, rules, fail to develop any self confidence in their charges, any training and basically let them flail around with no guidance. Add to that mix a little fear and you get one confused dog.

So, being a living creature who is use to having some sort of order, a way of living; consequences for certain behavior, food when they work and hunt for it, safety from predators when they fight for it, emotional fullness when they learn to get along with eachother.... and then they go 180 degrees the other way to.... not getting any at all and then they take the law into their own hands or paws. Some turn into criminals and some turn into violent ones at that. That doesn't mean that we have to eat something before our dogs or roll them over onto their sides as in an alpha roll or growl or scruff at them the way people misthink an alpha wolf does whenever the underling doesn't obey a command, such as sit, down, heel, stay. Alpha wolves actually don't go around telling their family members to sit, down, heel and stay. But you'd think they did by the way this misguided philosophy has perpetuated.

It's a romantic notion that we are somehow camping out in the woods with our wolf friends. (Oh, they're domestic?) And we've metamorphisized into the same specie. But the truth is that we are not the same specie. How then has it come to pass that the domestic dog and humans have gotten along together for thousands of years? Answer: We don't have to be the same specie and do all the things they do to get along. It's our duty to understand them the best we can and to incorporate some of their ways in our interactions.... and they are perfectly capable of learning some of ours. And all the things they do are not all the things that are so talked about like eating first, going out a door first, being in the highest spot on the furniture. They and we gravitated toward eachother a very long time ago, first, probably by eating eachother....then learning about and trusting eachother and developing this bond. It was never a one way street.

So...make rules that you want your dog to go by, show the dog what you mean and reinforce him. Learn how to teach your dog according to how dogs learn, and that's not by your eating first or not letting the dog on the bed. If you don't want him on the bed, then teach him to keep off. Teach your dog manners to suit your lifestyle, let him earn his keep in some way....trade a skill for a treat, dinner. Just like you would a child, don't jump up out of your seat to respond to his every whim...let him respond to most of your whims. Train him anything you like and which he's capable of. Learn some of what dog body language means and work with it, but don't get on all fours and grab your dog across the back of his neck with your teeth, knocking him down, thinking that's what a wolf does.

And beyond that... enjoy your dog and don't get all bogged down with all this irrelevent stuff. While you're trying to be alpha by performing this little trick and that.... and wondering about what every behavior or move your dog makes means, trying to interpret and then mimick something else, before you know it, you'll have your dog wondering what your problem is and the next thing you know, time will fly so fast, your dog will be dead of old age.

Read some training books where the authors know what they're talking about, have been educated in this, have degrees which means they've been through years of study, experimentation, research, observation and real life work. Example: Culture Clash, Jean Donaldson, Don't Shoot the Dog, Karen Pryor, The Other End of the Leash, Patricia McConnell.

Don't worry so much. Be confident and have fun with your puppy.

[Raised By Wolves]

Welcome Teckel!

For more discussion on this topic you might check out a couple of threads in the Debate Forum titled "Alpha and Dominance over used and misunderstood?" and "Social Animals, Leadership, and Communication" - which are about to get more "active".

Or, maybe I'll just give little Miss Carrie's soapbox a nudge ( ), and send this thread over there, too.

[flyndog]

Paedomorphs are animals that retain juvenile qualities. I'll have to check the spelling...
I'll never be able to rant like Carrie!