Chinese Foo Dogs

Camz · 11-17-2007, 06:32 PM

You know me, I get a wild hair and start researching breeds I'd love to have in the future.

My latest facination is the Chinese Foo Dog. I'm trying to find out more information on these guys, but pickings on the internet are slim, even though at this point I'm a master of search engines, LOL!

They seem pretty cool- they come in the toy, mini, and standard. The standard reminiscent of a mix between a chow and an akita in looks, but they seem to have a better temperament then either of the two.

They're stocky, heavy boned all purpose dogs with a thick, double coat, prick ears, and their tails are curled over their back.

BTW- sorry if I've offended any akita or chow owners out there- but both of their respective temperaments are not what I'd want for my personal home-made zoo of three cats and a dog

, though I love the way that they look.

I'm always a sucker for a spitz, though I can see the beauty in all dogs.

I think I'm going to e-mail the guy who started the Chinese Foo Dog club of America and pay the $25 to get the factoral kit on them.

I like them better then the Finnish Lapphunds so far, although the Lappies are still high up there on my "will have one day" list.

***Cassiepeia*** · 11-17-2007, 07:32 PM

I remember finding that breed on rarebreed.com (one of my favourite sites

). Very good looking dogs.

I wondered though whether or not they were actually a recreation or if they were genuinely 'found' after being throught to be extinct. When you get some more info, let us know.

I'd love to learn more and, as you stated, there isn't much info online about them.

Cass.

***dogs4life*** · 11-17-2007, 07:47 PM

I just did a quick search, this is what I found. Such a cute face, but boy that's a lot of fur :exhausted from cleaning:

Looks like CKC recognizes them.....

http://www.continentalkennelclub.com...?BreedNum=2062

This Pekingese Rescue Org says the Pek is also called "foo dog" in Chinese. Might be worth looking into. Maybe it's a larger variety of Pekingese...
http://www.pekingeserescue.com/

Quote:

The Pekingese have a very patient and loyal demeanor. They are believed to have originated in China in the 8th century, these creatures were revered as sacred by the imperial family and trained to follow the emperor and carry the hem of his robe. Also called foo dog by the Chinese, statues were carved out of ivory, bronze, and wood as a way to ward off evil spirits. The Pekingese have also been called the lion dog or sun dog because of their abundant ruffs, resembling lion manes or the rays of the sun. The spots on their coats are sometimes read, like tea leaves, to tell the fortunes of people.

From Iams website about Pekingese.
http://www.iams.com/en_BI/jhtmls/bre...n_brd_pekinges

Quote:

Pekingese were thought to be miniature versions of Chinese Foo Dogs, able to stave off evil spirits.

ETA-

Here's some more articles about Foo dogs, http://en.mimi.hu/dog/chinese_foo_dog.html

***Cassiepeia*** · 11-17-2007, 08:01 PM

The 'foo dog' referenced in the Pekingese history/standard is not the dog we're talking about here. "Foo Dogs" are those chinese dog/lion statues that are tradionally placed near doorways and entrances to ward off evil spirits (my mother has a pair of them). It's part of Chinese mythology.

This is part of the reason I wondered if the Chinese Foo dogs (the ones Camz is talking about) were recreations of an old extinct breed, rather than being a genuinely old Chinese breed. Although this may not be the case, it seems to me like someone has decided they could make some money buy using that name to tie it into the Chinese culture and creating a history for them. Of course, that could just be me being paranoid and perhaps they really are an old breed that just happen to share a name with the famous "Foo Dog" sculptures.

Cass.

Camz · 11-17-2007, 10:21 PM

Well, according to the founder of the Foo Dog Club of America's website (and I quoth):

Quote:

HISTORY
Every legend is based on fact; every myth is grounded in truth. A spitz-type dog discovered as an extant breed after having long been considered extinct is that of the Chinese Foo Dog, or Sacred Dog of Sinkiang, also known as the Chinese Choo Hunting Dog, Chinese Temple Forest Dog, Chinese T'ien Kou (Chinese Celestial Dog), or Chinese Lung- Kou (Chinese Dragon Dog).

The theory has been advanced that the Chinese Foo Dog originated through a crossing of Northern European hunting dogs and that of the ancient Chow Chow from the barren steppes of Mongolia. Another belief is that the Chinese Foo Dog is perhaps the missing link between that of the Chinese Wolf and the Chow Chow.

Anyway, It's possible that the Peke and the Chinese Foo dog are related, but if so, it's WAY far back.

The Chinese Foo Dog does come in a 10 lb toy variety...

But, from what I can tell (from reading similar information as above) these guys are actually an ancient breed. I haven't read anywhere that they have been recently recreated, but I will probably end up getting the packet and reading up on them, simply because they're such a cool breed and now on my top 5 list of breeds to own one day.

Even if I were to get one, it couldn't be for a few years yet. I'm not even sure how much puppies could go for, but I'd assume no more then $1,500 per puppy especially since you can't yet compete with them in any UKC or AKC sanctioned shows. They don't even have foundation stock registered with either, at least as far as I've been able to discover.

I'd also like to know what health tests one would test for. Since the breed isn't well known, I'd perform the same health tests on them as I would for the Chow chow and the Akita, but I don't know for sure.

***Cassiepeia*** · 11-18-2007, 02:32 AM

The problem with that history is that it's very vague. It screams 'recreation' to me, but that could just be my paranoia again.
I haven't been able to find any chinese sites talking about it's origins (or chinese breeders either...and the chinese breed club doesn't have any web information to find it) and that worries me a little. Not saying they're definately not genuine (it could just be that they're extremely rare and the fanciers aren't online yet), but there are a few red flags for me.
Just becareful that they're not a designer mutt with a fancy name and fake history.

Cass.

***dogs4life*** · 11-18-2007, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cassiepeia

The problem with that history is that it's very vague. It screams 'recreation' to me, but that could just be my paranoia again.
I haven't been able to find any chinese sites talking about it's origins (or chinese breeders either...and the chinese breed club doesn't have any web information to find it) and that worries me a little. Not saying they're definately not genuine (it could just be that they're extremely rare and the fanciers aren't online yet), but there are a few red flags for me.
Just becareful that they're not a designer mutt with a fancy name and fake history.

Cass.

Like Cass said, I'd be suspicious too about the authenticity of the breed. I actually suspect there are 2 or more breeds, who carry the Chinese Foo Dog title. If you are truely interested in the authentic Chinese Foo Dog, I'd suggest keep digging, it's a matter of time before you find the real one. But if you are just interested in the dog described on the Foo Dog Club of America's website, well it maybe a "fake" or misrepresented as a Foo Dog intentionally or accidentally.

I seriously suspect that the Pekingese and Chinese Foo Dog are of the same origin. Just over time the Pekingese was selected for the shorter nose and the smaller stature while the Foo Dog was not bred for those traits and maybe left more in it's "true" form. It's just the feeling I get from looking at the photos and reading the various articles on the internet

You can search for Chinese Foo Dog art, antiques, jade and statues where these dogs were well documented in China. The Foo Dog looks more like the Pekingese OR Tibetan Spaniel but not a complete match. I'm sure the Pekingese in China is totally different than the one in the US.

Maybe some Pekingese, Tibetan Spaniel, Chow Chow, Akita or other Asian Spitz breeders would know. It's worth a try. I'd hate for you to ripped off by some guy mixing Chows with other breeds and passing them off as the ancient Chinese Foo Dogs.

ETA

Here's links that suggests the Modern Chinese Foo Dog is a "recreation" of the primitive breed. Interesting! Looks like 1 person is behind it all Brad Trom who has a financial gain and is marketing this hybrid as a "Chinese Foo Dog"
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Dogs-701/Chinese-Foo-Dog.htm
Some one claims to have done DNA testing on their Dog obtained from Brad Trom's stock

Camz · 11-18-2007, 01:55 PM

You guys have excellent points!!!!! I emailed the guy and said this:

Quote:

Hello!

Can you give me some kind of information on how this breed was rediscovered? I find them very fascinating. I stumbled upon them when researching asian spitz breeds for my next puppy.

I just want to make sure that everything as it seems, and that it is not some kind of recent recreation of an old breed. Or, at least if it is a modern recreation of an old breed, that the creation of this breed is being done the right way, ie with a standard of some kind in mind, health testing, and some way to judge the conformation or working ability of the animal...

Thanks!

I don't mind if its a recreation, if the guy is honest about it. I understand the creation and recreation of certain breeds, I just think that there is a right way to do things and a wrong way to do things.

Since this dog has so many things that I'm looking for in my next dog, I'd be willing to support a great breader...key word "great."

If I can't find a great breeder, my search will continue. Well, shoot. it will probably continue, anyway. I love learning about dogs.

;-)

Edit to Add: I will have to see proof of everything. I don't take breeders at face value. That always seems to end in disaster for people...

Camz · 11-18-2007, 03:48 PM

Update: I just received an e-mail from this guy...he told me that in order to get his information on the Chinese Foo Dog, I'd have to call his telephone number...

That's kind of odd to me. I wonder why he didn't want to tell me via e-mail. IMHO, I'd rather give out a complete stranger my e-mail address then my home phone number, even if it meant typing a few lines.

Also, I'd want them to be able to refer back to the e-mail in case they needed reminding about what was said, rather then having them have to call me any time they needed clarification...

What do you guys think? Should I call?

***Cassiepeia*** · 11-18-2007, 03:55 PM

Quote:

You can search for Chinese Foo Dog art, antiques, jade and statues where these dogs were well documented in China. The Foo Dog looks more like the Pekingese OR Tibetan Spaniel but not a complete match. I'm sure the Pekingese in China is totally different than the one in the US.

Those Foo Dog statues etc... are (according to everything I've read apart from one very dodgy site) based on myth. Not on a real dog.

If the Pekingese is related it is so far back that they only share the same base breeds. I see no similarity in them at all. If they're related to any other Chinese breed it would be the Chow Chow (which is not related to the Pekingese at all as far as I know).

Camz...I'm glad you're checking them out thoroughly. I really do suspect this is simply a case of some people wanting to make a buck with a supposed recreation. I can't even find any info on an ancient version of this breed. So did it actually exist? The Chow Chow seems to be the only large dog they had (of course that's based on the info I've found, it's quite possible I just haven't stumbled across the info on it yet).

EDIT: I posted when you did Camz. LOL I'd call him, but only to see what he has to say and I'd arm myself with plenty of questions about it. If he's genuine, he'll be more than happy to answer your every question.

Cass.

***dogs4life*** · 11-18-2007, 04:35 PM

From looking at some of the art, I see some that look like Pekingese, Pug, Tibetan Spaniel, Chow and even Chinese Chongqing Dog. I guess it depends on the art you are looking at and if it is labeled correctly...which I'm sure there are many not labeled correctly. I guess it's possible the Foo Dog is a mythical creature like Cass suggested, haven't found that yet...highly likely though since the Chinese have many mythical creatures in their culture.

Maybe we need to take a field trip...an Asian Dog Expedition! If it's there, we should be able to find one

Keep digging, you'll find something that satisfies your curiosity.

I'd call and ask all sorts of questions. Why not?

Camz · 11-18-2007, 04:47 PM

Oh wow...so I just called and I sure didn't like what I heard...

The person I spoke to said that they did not health test...period. No hip dysplasia, no PRA...nothing. No breed, regardless of how primitive, is free of health problems.

They said That they could tell by LOOKING at a dog whether it was sound...right. They also said that these dogs had no health problems at all. While I agree that when hip dysplasia is obvious it is EASY to look at a dog and see that its not sound, sometimes even minor cases of hip dysplasia can surface when the dog is older, and so many owners just chalk it up to old age.

Another aspect that still doesn't make much sense is that I know people who have been involved in keeshonden for over 30 years who opt to health test their stock.

If someone who has been involved in showing/agility with a breed for that long still has to health test (ie can't just tell by looking), then it makes sense that all breeders should health test.

The person slipped up and said that Foo Dogs didn't have as many problems as pure bred dogs...I didn't skip a beat, or act surprised that this person had slipped up, I just continued on with my questions.

I didn't want them to start getting suspicious of me.

I asked about pricing, and this person said that it varied alot. I was like, "OH really? How does that work?"

They said that it depended on what I was looking for in a dog. I thought to myself, "Huh? What does that mean?" The lady I got Orchid from asked the same price for all puppies in the litter, show prospect or not.

I just said, "Oh...well, I'm just looking for a healthy family companion."

The person replied with, "Well, I think you'll find exactly what you need in this breed."

I wanted to say, "Well, if I wanted a mixed breed dog of spitz lineage that hasn't been health tested, then I'd just go to the pound!"

But I didn't. I kept on.

I asked about the breeding program, and the person told me that they all came straight with China. That China was just crawling with these dogs.

I should have asked how this person was planning on proving to me that the dogs came from China, but I just wanted to get off of the phone. I'd heard enough. Plus, this person was definitely not offering any more information then they had to.

*sigh*

Well, at least I did my research before I got sucked in to some hybrid dog scandal.

Too bad! I really love the way they look!

***Cassiepeia*** · 11-18-2007, 05:14 PM

That's such a shame Camz. Perhaps you could look at the Eurasier? They're a relatively new breed (I think they were created in the 60s), but the breeders (as far as I can tell) are ethical and they are suppose to have lovely temperaments. I was looking into them some time ago, but there are only a couple of Eurasier in Australia that I know of and they're not being bred.

Cass.

***dogs4life*** · 11-18-2007, 05:28 PM

Darn it! I'm so sorry...sounds like this person is taking advantage of people. I'm too am glad you did your research. Is that the only Foo Dog person you can contact? Are there any other ones in Europe or China? I just read something about Chinese Foo Dog meat being a delicacy and the dogs are still used for ceremonies....you might want to keep digging.

How about the Norwegian Elkhound? I house sat for a family who had 2, 1 male and 1 female. They were great family dogs, loved the kids and loved anyone who came in the house. Very easy to dog sit, except the Female was a bit dopey. The female got lost but the male always found his way back if they ever got out of the fence. That's the only spitz breed I've had pleasant encounters with.

ETA

I had to look the Eurasier up. Never heard of that one. Absolutely gourgeous! It has Keeshond, Chow-Chow & Samoyed? Is that right? Well it is way cuter than the Elkhound

11-17-2007, 06:32 PM	#1 (permalink)
Camz Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 180 Rep Power: 47	Chinese Foo Dogs You know me, I get a wild hair and start researching breeds I'd love to have in the future. My latest facination is the Chinese Foo Dog. I'm trying to find out more information on these guys, but pickings on the internet are slim, even though at this point I'm a master of search engines, LOL! They seem pretty cool- they come in the toy, mini, and standard. The standard reminiscent of a mix between a chow and an akita in looks, but they seem to have a better temperament then either of the two. They're stocky, heavy boned all purpose dogs with a thick, double coat, prick ears, and their tails are curled over their back. BTW- sorry if I've offended any akita or chow owners out there- but both of their respective temperaments are not what I'd want for my personal home-made zoo of three cats and a dog, though I love the way that they look. I'm always a sucker for a spitz, though I can see the beauty in all dogs. I think I'm going to e-mail the guy who started the Chinese Foo Dog club of America and pay the $25 to get the factoral kit on them. I like them better then the Finnish Lapphunds so far, although the Lappies are still high up there on my "will have one day" list.
Camz Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 180 Rep Power: 47

11-17-2007, 07:32 PM	#2 (permalink)
*Cassiepeia* Chihuahua Mum Super Moderator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: NSW, Australia Posts: 8,281 Blog Entries: 9 Rep Power: 284	I remember finding that breed on rarebreed.com (one of my favourite sites ). Very good looking dogs. I wondered though whether or not they were actually a recreation or if they were genuinely 'found' after being throught to be extinct. When you get some more info, let us know. I'd love to learn more and, as you stated, there isn't much info online about them. Cass.
	__________________ Say NO! to animals in pet shops. Rescue a friend instead: Petfinder Get more out of Global Paw. Check out these great features. Book Club ~ Blogs ~ Art Classes ~ Woof Review As a member of Global paw staff my opinions are not necessarily those of the website or the owner.

11-17-2007, 08:01 PM	#4 (permalink)
*Cassiepeia* Chihuahua Mum Super Moderator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: NSW, Australia Posts: 8,281 Blog Entries: 9 Rep Power: 284	The 'foo dog' referenced in the Pekingese history/standard is not the dog we're talking about here. "Foo Dogs" are those chinese dog/lion statues that are tradionally placed near doorways and entrances to ward off evil spirits (my mother has a pair of them). It's part of Chinese mythology. This is part of the reason I wondered if the Chinese Foo dogs (the ones Camz is talking about) were recreations of an old extinct breed, rather than being a genuinely old Chinese breed. Although this may not be the case, it seems to me like someone has decided they could make some money buy using that name to tie it into the Chinese culture and creating a history for them. Of course, that could just be me being paranoid and perhaps they really are an old breed that just happen to share a name with the famous "Foo Dog" sculptures. Cass.
	__________________ Say NO! to animals in pet shops. Rescue a friend instead: Petfinder Get more out of Global Paw. Check out these great features. Book Club ~ Blogs ~ Art Classes ~ Woof Review As a member of Global paw staff my opinions are not necessarily those of the website or the owner.

11-18-2007, 02:32 AM	#6 (permalink)
*Cassiepeia* Chihuahua Mum Super Moderator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: NSW, Australia Posts: 8,281 Blog Entries: 9 Rep Power: 284	The problem with that history is that it's very vague. It screams 'recreation' to me, but that could just be my paranoia again. I haven't been able to find any chinese sites talking about it's origins (or chinese breeders either...and the chinese breed club doesn't have any web information to find it) and that worries me a little. Not saying they're definately not genuine (it could just be that they're extremely rare and the fanciers aren't online yet), but there are a few red flags for me. Just becareful that they're not a designer mutt with a fancy name and fake history. Cass.
	__________________ Say NO! to animals in pet shops. Rescue a friend instead: Petfinder Get more out of Global Paw. Check out these great features. Book Club ~ Blogs ~ Art Classes ~ Woof Review As a member of Global paw staff my opinions are not necessarily those of the website or the owner.

11-18-2007, 03:48 PM	#9 (permalink)
Camz Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 180 Rep Power: 47	Update: I just received an e-mail from this guy...he told me that in order to get his information on the Chinese Foo Dog, I'd have to call his telephone number... That's kind of odd to me. I wonder why he didn't want to tell me via e-mail. IMHO, I'd rather give out a complete stranger my e-mail address then my home phone number, even if it meant typing a few lines. Also, I'd want them to be able to refer back to the e-mail in case they needed reminding about what was said, rather then having them have to call me any time they needed clarification... What do you guys think? Should I call?
Camz Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 180 Rep Power: 47

11-18-2007, 04:35 PM	#11 (permalink)
*dogs4life* I'm Crunchy Admin Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Pismo Beach, CA Posts: 1,954 Blog Entries: 11 Rep Power: 101	From looking at some of the art, I see some that look like Pekingese, Pug, Tibetan Spaniel, Chow and even Chinese Chongqing Dog. I guess it depends on the art you are looking at and if it is labeled correctly...which I'm sure there are many not labeled correctly. I guess it's possible the Foo Dog is a mythical creature like Cass suggested, haven't found that yet...highly likely though since the Chinese have many mythical creatures in their culture. Maybe we need to take a field trip...an Asian Dog Expedition! If it's there, we should be able to find one Keep digging, you'll find something that satisfies your curiosity. I'd call and ask all sorts of questions. Why not?
	__________________ ~Kendra Rest in Peace Sweet Montana (1992-2008) Get more out of Global Paw: Art Classes / Blogs / Book Club / Photo Gallery / Recipes

11-18-2007, 04:47 PM	#12 (permalink)
Camz Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 180 Rep Power: 47	Oh wow...so I just called and I sure didn't like what I heard... The person I spoke to said that they did not health test...period. No hip dysplasia, no PRA...nothing. No breed, regardless of how primitive, is free of health problems. They said That they could tell by LOOKING at a dog whether it was sound...right. They also said that these dogs had no health problems at all. While I agree that when hip dysplasia is obvious it is EASY to look at a dog and see that its not sound, sometimes even minor cases of hip dysplasia can surface when the dog is older, and so many owners just chalk it up to old age. Another aspect that still doesn't make much sense is that I know people who have been involved in keeshonden for over 30 years who opt to health test their stock. If someone who has been involved in showing/agility with a breed for that long still has to health test (ie can't just tell by looking), then it makes sense that all breeders should health test. The person slipped up and said that Foo Dogs didn't have as many problems as pure bred dogs...I didn't skip a beat, or act surprised that this person had slipped up, I just continued on with my questions. I didn't want them to start getting suspicious of me. I asked about pricing, and this person said that it varied alot. I was like, "OH really? How does that work?" They said that it depended on what I was looking for in a dog. I thought to myself, "Huh? What does that mean?" The lady I got Orchid from asked the same price for all puppies in the litter, show prospect or not. I just said, "Oh...well, I'm just looking for a healthy family companion." The person replied with, "Well, I think you'll find exactly what you need in this breed." I wanted to say, "Well, if I wanted a mixed breed dog of spitz lineage that hasn't been health tested, then I'd just go to the pound!" But I didn't. I kept on. I asked about the breeding program, and the person told me that they all came straight with China. That China was just crawling with these dogs. I should have asked how this person was planning on proving to me that the dogs came from China, but I just wanted to get off of the phone. I'd heard enough. Plus, this person was definitely not offering any more information then they had to. sigh Well, at least I did my research before I got sucked in to some hybrid dog scandal. Too bad! I really love the way they look!
Camz Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 180 Rep Power: 47	Last edited by Camz : 11-18-2007 at 04:50 PM.

11-18-2007, 05:14 PM	#13 (permalink)
*Cassiepeia* Chihuahua Mum Super Moderator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: NSW, Australia Posts: 8,281 Blog Entries: 9 Rep Power: 284	That's such a shame Camz. Perhaps you could look at the Eurasier? They're a relatively new breed (I think they were created in the 60s), but the breeders (as far as I can tell) are ethical and they are suppose to have lovely temperaments. I was looking into them some time ago, but there are only a couple of Eurasier in Australia that I know of and they're not being bred. Cass.
	__________________ Say NO! to animals in pet shops. Rescue a friend instead: Petfinder Get more out of Global Paw. Check out these great features. Book Club ~ Blogs ~ Art Classes ~ Woof Review As a member of Global paw staff my opinions are not necessarily those of the website or the owner.