Olde English Bulldogge?

[Ritz459]

I've been trying to find information about them these past couple of days (as they really strike my fancy), but there is one question I haven't quite been able to figure out. Are they a legit pure bred dog?
I've seen some breeders who are just crossing English Bulldogs with American Bulldogs and calling them "Olde English Bulldogges", and that means obviously they aren't purebred (although the breeder said they were registered). Then I've also seen some breeders who seem to know what they are talking about and the dogs in their breeding program aren't just first generation crosses, but Olde English Bulldogges.

I suppose with this "hybrid dog" craze, I want to make sure this breed is actually legit before I continue reading up about them.

[Cassiepeia]

It's a designer mutt for men, basically.

People breeding 'Olde English Bulldogges' say they're trying to recreate what the original British bulldog was, but honestly I think it's an exercise no different than breeding designer dogs. They're not needed, there isn't a niche, they're not a breed (and there are so many different versions of them I don't think it ever will be a breed).
I know some people like to go on about how they're healthier and more athletic...but if we're comparing it to the British Bulldog, then the Maltipoo is more athletic and healthy too.

I'm not saying they're not awesome looking dogs, they are. I love all the bully breeds and mixes and would have one in my home in an instant (were I able), but I wouldn't buy from someone breeding them. Perhaps it's just me being cynical, I don't know. But I don't see these "recreations" as anything more than Cockapoos with attitude. If you catch my meaning? Regardless of what ever 'working' excuse people use.

Cass.

[Ritz459]

Aw, darn. I really liked them too. I was hoping, for once, that a new "breed" I found would actually be a breed. A Bulldog with less drive than an American but you could still exercise with and didn't have to worry about overheating as much really appealed to me.

I suppose I can hope that they will become a breed in the future, but that is being optimistic. One website I was looking at had the dogs being used as farm dogs (herding cattle, gaurding the cattle, gaurding the property, etc.) and I'm not sure how I feel about that, since the dogs were being worked and were health tested and not bred just for the heck of it. *shrugs* Who knows.

I was getting leery because when I would look at a dog's pedigree on a breeder's website and it would go back about three generations and then more than one of the anscestors would be unknown. To me, if you don't know most of your dog's line (most definitally past three generations) then how do you know what traits will pop up?

*sigh* Oh well.

[Cassiepeia]

I know how you feel. I see these bully breeds and wish they weren't so dodgy so I could perhaps have one in the future. Sadly, everyone is just out to make a buck now days. If you keep an eye on a bully rescue they probably have them coming in from time to time (perhaps much more often than that). There's no reason you still couldn't have one.

Here in Australia we have people trying to breed the Australian Bulldog. It was suppose to be more healthy and athletic than the British, but all it is is a designer mutt. They even started breeding miniature Aussie Bulldogs. Money is evil, I tell you.

Cass.

[oc_spirit]

Originally Posted by Ritz459

Aw, darn. I really liked them too. I was hoping, for once, that a new "breed" I found would actually be a breed. A Bulldog with less drive than an American but you could still exercise with and didn't have to worry about overheating as much really appealed to me.

The working ones are actually typically drivier than AmBulls, especially Johnson AmBulls

I'd say do a bit of research and talk to actual breeders (especially the one you mentioned who are breeding for functionality) before believing anything that is ignorantly stated on a public forum You'd be surprised what you may learn about these dogs!

[Cassiepeia]

I'd say do a bit of research and talk to actual breeders (especially the one you mentioned who are breeding for functionality) before believing anything that is ignorantly stated on a public forum

Breeders will tell you anything you want to hear and most of them believe their own crap. I can't ever be comfortable with the breeding of more and more mutts, while there are so many established breeds already here and shelters and rescues are overflowing.
People breeding dogs that genuinely work aren't always reputable either. However they often like to justify their breeding by emphasising the fact that their dogs are tough working dogs. Just look at the Australian pig dogs, Bull Arabs (they're mutts, not a breed, by the way). Gorgeous dogs, very functional and unbelievable working dogs. But if there is a breeder out there actually breeding ethically and responsibly they're one of the rare ones. The majority never health test their dogs and have little knowledge of good breeding practices. In fact designer dog breeders are often more responsible, which is sad.
But of course these dogs are 'true working dogs' so they're some how exempt from people questioning their breeding practices.
I'll give them a little credit though, they are trying to clean things up and slowly move towards making them a breed...but they're exceptions to the 'mutt working dog' rule.

Working dogs or not, the breeding needs to be ethical and it needs to be needed. I really don't see a need for the majority of these dogs that another established breed couldn't do. Even with pig dogging, there are pure breeds that can do the job just as well as the mutts they breed.
Like I said...they're designer dogs for men. I will only make exceptions in my opinion for ethical working dog breeders who do not breed pets (ie: the sole purpose for the dogs created is to work and nothing more), who health test all their stock thoroughly, who keep a record of their dogs pedigree and are responsible for the pups they sell for the life of the dog (like your average reputable breeder). Yes I'm harsh and like talking to a brick wall, but there are too many dogs suffering at the hands of inflated egos in this world.

Cass.

[oc_spirit]

Originally Posted by Cassiepeia

Working dogs or not, the breeding needs to be ethical and it needs to be needed. I really don't see a need for the majority of these dogs that another established breed couldn't do. Even with pig dogging, there are pure breeds that can do the job just as well as the mutts they breed.
Like I said...they're designer dogs for men. I will only make exceptions in my opinion for ethical working dog breeders who do not breed pets (ie: the sole purpose for the dogs created is to work and nothing more), who health test all their stock thoroughly, who keep a record of their dogs pedigree and are responsible for the pups they sell for the life of the dog (like your average reputable breeder). Yes I'm harsh and like talking to a brick wall, but there are too many dogs suffering at the hands of inflated egos in this world.

Cass.

If the purebreds are "just as good" as the purebreds, why would breeders bother mixing at all (other than to bring in new blood)?? LOL Sorry but that statement alone clearly difined how much you actually know about these crosses and what they bring to the table.

Ritz, surprisingly enough there are breeders out there who will give it to you straight. They will tell you their dogs good points AND their faults. They will tell you how their dogs surpass purebreds AND what they are lacking. I still recommend getting in touch with not just those working breeders, but owners of Olde Bulldogges who work their dogs. Be careful though, there is already a split between people who own and breed PET Bulldogges and FUNCTIONAL/WORKING Bulldogges. The two are VERY different in temperment, drives, ability, etc so research carefully. Depending which way you'll go you'll either end up with an amzing dog who is incredibly functional and versatile, or you will end up with just a leggier Bulldog.

[Cassiepeia]

If the purebreds are "just as good" as the purebreds (I assume you mean cross breeds here), why would breeders bother mixing at all (other than to bring in new blood)??

That's my point though. Why bother? Especially with Olde English Bulldogges.

And I am happy to excuse breeders of dogs bred purely for work if the breeding is ethical and responsible. I will not under any circumstances allow that part of my beliefs to lapse just because someone says their dogs are 'working' dogs. The same ethics still apply.

If we're going to excuse them, then why not excuse the doodles and poos too?

Hey, lets just let everyone breed if they have a reasonable excuse. Why care at all? I know you and I are never going to agree on this issue, Ren. It's a sore point for the both of us.

Cass.

[k9hullio_sam]

I agree with you Cass. Someone told me the other day that labradoodles were bred to be service dogs for people with allergies? So if bulldogges are excused, then why not doodles?

[PawNclaws]

Originally Posted by k9hullio_sam

I agree with you Cass. Someone told me the other day that labradoodles were bred to be service dogs for people with allergies? So if bulldogges are excused, then why not doodles?

Orig. they were, but guess what .. they didn't turn out to be ALL hypoallergenic . So they stopped. I'm sure a *handful* are bred for the purpose, but so far I have not seen any reputable "oodle" breeders ! Few claim to do the Hips, but when you look their dogs up, nothing's on the site. They either did Prelims, or are telling a fib . From what I have come to understand is that only a few puppies from the litters were "hypoallergenic" , and even then, they still have dander and shed - just not as much. The Bybrs got a hold of this and you guessed it, it's their excuse to breed and produce AND charge such a high price for the pups. They'll keep feeding people this BS, and it's up to the public to educate them selves or else they're going to get duped - it's also up to us (speaking of all dog lovers) to help them find that information. I won't comment on anything except this, because this is kind of in my area since I'm "into" Labs and this affects them. I've recently come across a new "type" of dog that mixes a Whim and a Lab. The people say it's the "best of both worlds", however, I see no improvement. They do nothing but hunt their dogs. They don't do anything else, not even health testing NOR the mixing of the best lines of the 2 breeds. Their dogs are working, but I will never excuse them for what they are doing ; breeding mutts with no regards to the health or welfare of the breeds they are using and the pups they sell. Am I mad ? Yes, but I'm not the breeder police nor is anyone really. We just have to do the best we can at letting the general public know that this type of breeding is not "ethical" or responsible- it's up to them to take it or leave it .. thus educate them selves. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" . Of course, this is all my opinion and such, for what it's worth

[Ritz459]

Here is what one of the breeders says about the "breed" on their website:

Welcome to Starline Ranch Olde Bulldogges. Our Bulldogges carry heavy Hermes influence, but not all can be traced directly to the Hermes yard. Our dogs have no Leavitt influence, although we may add some in future breedings. Our dogs fit the loose description currently encompassed by the Olde English Bulldogge “breed.” To be clear, Mr. David Leavitt named the breed, and defined the origins as ½ English Bulldog, 1/6 Pit Bull, 1/6 Bull Mastiff, and 1/6 American Bulldog.

Mr. Leavitt was dedicated to reproducing the bulldog of yore, an animal of great athleticism and health; an animal capable of working; but without the mean streak. All of his dogs had joint evaluations performed, and were found to be sound before being included in his breeding program. If an Olde Bulldogge has anything other than Olde English Bulldogge in the last three generations of it’s pedigree, it is not more than 7/8 pure and probably should not be called an Olde English Bulldogge.

That is not to say an Olde Bulldogge has to be pure Olde English Bulldogge to be an acceptable representation of the animal of yore. There were many differences in size and looks during the years these animals were a healthy robust breed.

On the other hand, the four breeds were crossed in the manner they were, to produce the animal the true Olde English Bulldogge is, and it is a far healthier dog than the English Bulldog. The Olde English Bulldogge was (and Is) not without health problems, and only with careful selection and breeding of healthy offspring over generations can the undesirable traits be culled. If an “OEB” does not have several generations of selective breeding in it’s background, don’t be surprised if “things” don’t turn out too well later in the dog’s life. For example, many people who purchase an Olde English Bulldogge look for a very “bully” dog. Some breeders looking for a quick fix respond to that demand by injection of additional English Bulldog blood into their line. That, in and of itself, is not necessarily a problem, if (and that is a huge IF) the breeder knows the English Bulldog to be truly healthy. Over half of the dogs suffering from hip dysplasia do not become affected enough to noticeably impair function. 76% of English Bulldogges are dysplastic. That number also represents better than a 30% increase in the incidence of dysplasia in the breed over the last several years. The only way to screen for dysplasia is through the use of x-rays. A breeder cannot know if dysplasia is a problem in a line unless the dogs have been professionally screened.

We know the origins of our dogs. They come from proven healthy lines. Our first female was three years old before we bred her, because it took me a year and a half to identify the right stud. Our females have joints x-rayed before we breed them, and, in the future, all breeding stock we own will have been evaluated by O.F.A., at least on a preliminary basis. We will do our homework in evaluating dogs from outside of our yard, and stand behind offspring as though they were of our origin.

We produce healthy dogs from proven lines. They make exceptional family pets, are great with children, form strong lasting bonds and will defend “their” family aggressively, fearlessly, and awesomely effectively. I always have at least two dogs out of our breeding stock trained to the point they are of some utility in handling cattle.

These animals are very intelligent and strong-willed. Unless you have prior experience training dogs, obedience training is a must for both you and the dog. I also guarantee the dog will train you, if you do not train it. These are medium sized, powerful dogs, some capable of pulling thousands of pounds. Either they are taught to do as you please, or you will go where they please.

I may email the breeder and ask some questions just to fufill my own curiousity.

I suppose I have a hard time condeming someone who is trying to create a healthier breed and bring it back to what it used to be. I mean, "Labradoodles" were created just for looks, "non-shedding"ness (lie), and personality. There wasn't even an original breed to begin with. "Puggles" are bred to give you the "best of both worlds" and to erase the Pug's breathing difficulties. But it doesn't look like a Pug.
If someone did some *responsible* (i.e. with good, healthy lineage, proven breeding stock) outcrossing to create a dog that looks and acts like an AKC Pug but the dog doesn't have the Pug's eye and breathing problems....is that bad? I'm still undecided on that issue.

I can see that as of now they aren't a true breed, but they may become one in the future if the breeders stay passionate about it. Labradoodles might become a breed in the future, too, so that isn't saying much.

[oc_spirit]

Ritz, I'm glad you took the time to do your own research and didnt just blindly jump on the bandwagon! That is an example of a very responsible dog owner, good for you!