another question on our golden pup- she growled after trying to take rawhide..

[keekers]

away & really surprised us with that behavior (as this is why we chose goldens for their "happy go lucky atitude".. she was chewing like crazy & went over to get it & she was hoarding it (like an animal) & growled and kind of scared me. she is usually a happy girl & fun (except typical puppy stuff).. hubby took it away & scolded her. i know we have to be the alpha leader & this really reinforces that as we do not want a bad dog. is this normal behavior maybe a 1x thing? appreciate all the feedback. this puppy rearing is exhausting at times!!! : )

[britishbandit]

You have to be careful with that. If you plan on giving her rawhide, taking it away and punishing her will only teach her that she had something to be protective of in the first place. That isn't going to help anything, only make it worse.
What I'd suggest, is not giving rawhide at all, for now. And work on give and take games with items that aren't as prized, and teaching "drop it", and rewarding for giving things to you when you want them. Don't start with something so highly valued as rawhide. I had the same problem with PJ when he first arrived, but it wasn't just with rawhide, it started with just his regular kibble. It took baby steps, but it worked, and now we happily can give and take with anything!

[Spiritus]

This IS typical puppy stuff. It sounds like your husband handled it the way I would.

She needs to learn now that she can't guard from you. I like to teach that to puppies when they are young, because if the first time you try to remove something from them is when they are a year or two old, they might bite, and their bite is much more serious as an adult than as a puppy.

Now that she has had that lesson of having the rawhide removed and being scolded, set her up. Give her a rawhide, get yourself a piece of chicken or something else that is REALLY desireable. Show the pup the chicken, and when she releases the rawhide, give her a small piece of the chicken and take the rawhide, AT THE SAME TIME. Chicken will distract nose from rawhide, you can remove rawhide. REPEAT. Then, start adding a word to it - I use Leave It. Tell the dog to leave it, distract with the treat, then remove the rawhide. Every time you have that rawhide in your hand after removing it, tell her she's a good girl. Set her up to do this a few times a week for two to three weeks, and you will end up with a dog who knows that Leave It means that something REALLY good is coming.

[Carrie]

Remember, dogs evolved from wild animals. In the wild, the dogs who said “oh no, you go a head and take that last bone” did not survive to produce off spring. In other words....Food is an issue over which sub-dominant dogs will argue with more dominant dogs. If, in the wild, dogs gave up their food to anyone (even higher ranking dogs) they'd soon starve to death, be unable to reproduce and the specie would become extinct.

If you forceably take things from your dog, you may create a resource guarder. In your case, your dog has become a resource guarder. It is a pretty common trait because it is a hard wired, genetically dictated trait.

So, to say that you're the boss and that's why it's safe to take a resource foreably from your dog has no scientific merit. There are safer and better ways to condition a dog to this unnatural behavior of giving up high value food or objects based on the science of canine behavior.

You have inadvertantly taught your dog this behavior. When you take a high value thing away from a dog often without giving a higher value (in the dog's mind) in trade, you teach the dog that when you say, "drop" something bad happens. He does what you ask, gives you the bone and you take it away. Soon, the cue, "drop it" loses it's former meaning and now means that something he doesn't like is going to happen. This growling is his communication to you to not take his bone. This is a strong instinct for a dog... any dog anywhere in a hierarchy to defend his stuff. It doesn't have anything to do with leadership. Leaders don't take food already in possession of another dog...very rare. This needs some thorough counter conditioning.

Dogs learn by being reinforced for responses they give you. If they fail to give you the correct response, the resonse you want, it is because they have not had an ample history of reinforcements for it. All behavior is dependent on reinforcement. It doesn't matter that someone wants him to do something just they're the "boss" because dogs are not obedient to our values, ideas or morals. They're obedient to behavioral law. And believe me, this dominance panacea is inaccurate and misplaced, based on old, outdated, disproven wolf studies on captive, unrelated wolves and had nothing whatever to do with real dog/wolf families and how they operate as a social group.

My recommendation to you is to take your pup back to kindergarten, "Give and Take 101." (my method)

Procedure: Give the dog a lower value item, (stop giving him bones for a while) something he likes but does not value too highly. Teach him "take" where he takes it from your hand on cue. Take a higher value treat (than his toy) (a little training treat, but not of the very highest value, from a near by table) and ask him to "give" you the item to your hand. (you can use "drop" instead of "give" but I'll use "give" here on, for the sake of this description) Give him the treat immediately when he does. If he does not give, show him the treat and then ask again. When he has eaten the treat give him back the toy. Repeat. Then toss the toy 2 or 3 feet away and encourage him to bring it to you. Trade for a treat and toss it back for him to retrieve. If he is not into retrieving and you don't want to teach him that yet, then continue "give" and "take," trading for the treat. Make it a game. Make it fun. Leave the toy with him and walk away and do something else. If you need to take the treat to put it away, come back and play with him for a few times first and trade him for a yummy treat. Find something else for him fun to do.

After 3 or 4 days of this, as long as he's fine with the previous, lower value things, move up to a higher value item, but not the highest you can imagine. And do the same thing. Increase the value of the treat somewhat (not the highest value)(tiny)Take this lesson/GAME on the "road" by trying it in different locations, contexts and at random times throughout the day. Vary the toys or items your dog has in his possession and vary the treats a little bit. Do this for a week or so before trying with a high value bone or special toy which he covets. Always reinforce him for "giving" to you. Give him back the item right away, every time for now.

A reinforcement is a reward which increases the probabililty of a correct response. In other words, a reward which he can't resist is a reinforcement. And believe me, he can resist praise unless it's of higher value than the toy or bone you want to take from him. (which I can almost guarantee it is not)

A piece of mozerella cheese, steak, chicken is difficult to resist, even for the most finicky eaters. What you think of as a reward is not necessarily a reinforcer. It must be something the dog loves and must be of higher value that the motivator which is reinforcing him at the time. Ie: Chewing on his bone, toy or other possession.

After you've practiced this in various locations, various treats, various possessions and you see that your dog has absolutely no trepidation about giving you things, that he is giving you things promptly and happily, as though he's playing a game....only then move up to a high value possession. "give" (to you) and give it right back to him... "take." Reward with a hunk or two of chicken or steak or something equally good. Do it two or three times and then let him chew on it or play with his possession by himself. Leave him alone for a while. When you want his session with it to end, again trade him. Don't harrass him with taking the bone away over and over. Just practice a couple of times and leave him enjoy it. Do this every time for weeks before you start varying the reward schedule. When he is giving you no sign or hint of aggression, a hard eye, stare, nervousness... and is giving you all kinds of items in all kinds of contexts/situations, you then can skip a reward when he gives. You can skip a couple of times, but vary the number of times you skip. Ie: skip one time, then 2, then 4, then 1, then 6, then 3, then 8. Gradually, you will phase out the reward by making larger intervals between reinforcers... however, still with no strict pattern for his giving you an item.... and you will no longer need to give it back to him. Once in a while, still.....do give him a treat for giving you something to keep him from regressing, especially when you're taking a high value item. All skills and behaviors will regress without a little practice. This is the way it is.

I take things from my Doberman, even a fresh, meaty bone with absolutely no objection from him. (I had to take a deer leg bone from him to make sure it had no worms. Gross! But it looked OK so I gave it back) LOL. I no longer have to give him anything in exchange every time. I just take it. But like I said, here and there I do continue to reward him with what HE likes for giving me something.

[keekers]

wow- thanks for all the info. its does make sense. today we start the training of give & take!!!.. have a great weekend!

[Carrie]

Keep us posted as to her progress. It can be made into a fun and rewarding thing for your dog to give you something. If she knows you're going to play with her with the toy and she's going to get treats, she'll be so much more apt and willing to "share." I usually get my pups kind of revved up....woooo hoooo, go fetch....bring it here, here's a treat. Yeah.....know what I mean? So much better than entering into a confrontation or power struggle. Well, let us know. Good luck.