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[FCS03]

Hi there,

I joined hoping to gain some insight as to what is going on with my 5 month old Australian Shepherd puppy. I've been researching high and low trying to figure out what to do with this problem but have found no solutions that we (husband and I) weren't already doing. Warning: this will be long.

Well we got Sawyer at 8 weeks from the breeder. Initially we had him in the bathroom with his crate blocking the door (but still allowing him in and out of the crate) and potty pads so he could pee if he needed to. We were trying to crate train him properly. He began to climb over his crate and escape while we were gone so then we put a baby gate on top. Well, he climbed over his crate AND the baby gate after two days. Then we just shut the door and put his crate inside so he just didn't have as much room. I didn't want him having free range of the house because I don't want him getting into anything he shouldn't. He had a nylabone and kong with him at all times and then I'd rotate various others for him to play with. Well he eventually chewed a hole in the wall, not the corner but the actual wall, so we put an end to that. We had to just keep him in the crate regardless when we weren't home. He doesn't mind his crate, he actually loves it. He goes in there to sleep at his own will and I feed him in it as well.

Here is where the problem occurs. He is pretty consistently house trained (there are still the occasional accidents), but he pees in his crate. He doesn't go poo in it, just pees. We did have him checked for a UTI because he was urinating quite frequently and he did have one, we treated it, and the follow-up urinalysis showed that it is gone. This happened when he was 3 months. He is on a regular schedule:

6:00- Wake up, go potty, get water
6:15- Breakfast
6:30- Bowls are taken up (he always eats it all)
7:00/8:25 (depending on day)- Final potty time before I leave for my labs, always goes at 7:00 because that is when he has a bowel movement
12:00-1:00- I am home and he potties again and gets more water (depends on the day and traffic)
3:00- Potty time
5:00- We go for a 20 minute walk with a few minutes of running on grass interspersed.
6:00- Dinner time!
6:30- Another bowel movement
8:00- water bowls are taken up to help him sleep through the night and a potty break
10:00- Potty then bed time (he is always exhausted by this point, we try to wear him out)

Play and training is throughout the day when I am home and we use positive reinforcement. He is so smart and does very well. We are hoping to do agility and obedience with him.

I am only gone four days out of the week. Our issue is that he will pee in his crate when I'm gone and if a lab or lecture gets canceled and I follow that schedule then take an hour nap, he will pee when I am sleeping. His crate is in our room with us and he doesn't always pee at the same time intervals, it's different. Sometimes if I left something, I'll leave and come right back to grab my phone, and he'll have peed. Other times he doesn't and sometimes it's even right as I walk through the door. He does not pee during the night.

We have two other dogs and we didn't have such a hard time with either one of them on house training. They are in their crates in our room with him. We leave the TV on for them so they can watch their favorite show (Family Guy) while we are gone. We got rid of all the carpet and put down laminate so he wouldn't smell any old spots (before we got Get Serious to clean and were using Spot Shot) to tempt him. We clean his crate with a vinegar and water mixture and him with a puppy shampoo every time he pees, although we do sometimes use a dry shampoo on him. We left Kongs with frozen peanut butter with him. The only thing that worked was leaving a hip bone with him (vet said this kind was ok and wouldn't splinter) and giving him Pet-EZ, but that only worked for two days.

He is monocryptorchid and is scheduled for neutering this Friday. The vet said that the undescended testicle wouldn't be pressed up against his bladder, but we are still hoping. The vet thinks it is separation anxiety and that we may have to put him on a generic form of Prozac for a little bit, but I would really like to avoid that. When I put him in the crate I am indifferent towards him and don't make a fuss and I ignore him for 5 minutes when I come home.

Also, If on the weekends the husband and I go out for dinner and a movie, we'll come home and he'll be fine! Other times if I run to the corner store for 20 minutes, he'll have peed. I always take him out before I leave, it's the last thing I do.

I'm at my wits end and any help would be appreciated.

[Carrie]

It's hard to train a puppy when you're gone all day. Maybe you could take a couple of weeks off. (?) I know....very difficult. But if you could get this under control, once and for all, it sure would be nice. The following situation isn't exactly the same as yours, but it might give you some additional ideas. I know some people are successful with both pee pads in the house and also going outdoors to potty. Personally, I think it's easier for a pup to learn that going inside is never an option...that outside is infinitely a better choice.

http://www.globalpaw.com/forum/dog-b...-help-dog.html (need help with dog....)

[FCS03]

That is the thing: I've already taken off 2 1/2 weeks (all in a row) to help his situation out. He doesn't pee in the house, only his crate. The two weeks were when he did stop peeing in the house. The two weeks prior to my "vacation" we had someone taking him out during the day to try to stop him soiling the crate on the two days I was gone, but he would still do it. Before January there were only 2 days a week I would be gone and then only for 3 hours, but I don't have that option again until May. I'm still not gone nearly the amount of time other people are from their dogs. It's just hard having to clean him and his crate everyday.

I don't know if there is a connection that I'm not helping him make or what. I feed him in his crate and all treats are given inside of it as well. Or maybe his bladder is just not developed properly. I don't know. Thanks for the link, I'll get reading it now.

[Ritz459]

Any chance it could be habit? It happened when he was a pup and it keeps happening, so he doesn't view it as wrong. For example, I highly doubt you've been able to catch him in the act of peeing in his crate since he is only placed in the crate while you are gone/can't supervise. In contrast, I'm sure when you were housetraining him you watched him like a hawk and any attemps to soil in the house were corrected and he was immediately taken outside.

Some dogs don't have kennel sense, so if he was never caught in the act and corrected (by that, I just mean interrupted with a "Hey! Outside!" and then promptly taken outside like you would do if you were housebreaking and he tried to squat on the carpet) he may not know that peeing in the crate is a bad thing. In fact, being in the crate itself during the day could be the trigger that is causing him to urinate in the first place.

Just throwing that idea out there. I know some dogs in at work (boarding kennel) refuse for various reasons to urinate or defecate outside so they go in their kennel because they can't hold it anymore (in your pup's case, this event would have been his UTI). Then their kennel as a bathroom becomes habit and they are constantly pooping/peeing while kenneled, even if taken or even left outside in a run for a period of time. We don't catch them in the act of soiling their kennel, so the habit remains.

Would keeping him in a covered ex-pen work? That way, you could put pads down for him so at least you won't need to clean up a messy crate and a messy dog.

[FCS03]

If we are home, unless he can't see or hear us, and he is in his crate because we are cooking, cleaning, anything that poses some immediate risk to him via chemicals or him trying to climb into the oven as he so likes to do, he does fine. I really do believe that it is a separation anxiety thing and I've tried everything I can think of short of a behavioral therapist, and I can't afford that since he is exhausting so many more resources than my other dogs combined. He was neutered Friday and since he was abdominally cryptorchid, the doctor checked out his bladder for us and said it was normal.

[jenn2004sj]

Just curious, how big is his crate? For a dog that is not potty trained, you want one that they can only turn around in, and lay down in. Nothing bigger.

[FCS03]

I actually think his crate is a tad small for him. When he lays on his belly (legs tucked underneath him), his bottom touches the divider and his nose hits the crate door. If he lays on his back to sleep, he has to tilt his head to the side. So it's definitely not too big. I'm pretty familiar with how to properly size a crate. Like I said, I'm pretty sure it is separation anxiety. Excessive barking, panting, he gnaws at the crate (I'll walk in and catch him- he just freezes, lol), he only urinates in his crate, not the house, while we are gone or he can't see us (does not poo in his crate or the house), and when he was being crate trained, he chewed a whole in the wall and would take chunks out of the door. He has done this since he was about 13 weeks old and we got him at 8 weeks. Every trainer and vet I have talked to says it's extreme separation anxiety and the only thing left that we haven't tried that they have suggested is drug therapy and I just would hate to drug up a puppy. I would love to be able to exercise him more, but I when I ask the trainers they tell me not to since he is growing and we want to do either agility or flying disk competitions with him. He just has so much energy! More than his little bones can take! It wouldn't be a problem if we could do more stuff with him without putting his development at risk. We love to go hiking with our dogs and we run.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just going to have to go with drug therapy because there doesn't seem to be any other options.

[LilacDragon]

If he is good in the house, can you try leaving him in one room instead of the crate? At 5 months old, my pup is not crated when I am at home except at night. When I am in the kitchen, he is gated into the kitchen with me and when I am in my room, he is gated in with me. He has enough stuff that he is reliable if I want to lay down and take a nap. It sounds as if yours might be better outside the crate as much as possible when you are home. At some point - your pup is going to have to learn not to crawl into the oven, might as well deal with that now.

[FCS03]

When we left him in the bathroom (since any accidents won't ruin the floors), he chewed a hole in the wall and scratched at the door ferociously enough to mess it up, and he still pees, but doesn't poo. He also will still bark, whine, and howl. The only advantage to the bathroom is that he can get away from his pee and we don't have to clean him, instead just repair an entire wall.

I feel like more exercise would help him out, but I don't know how to do that safely for his development. We've already upped his walks to 30 minutes.

By the way, I really appreciate all of the comments and suggestions.

[jenn2004sj]

Originally Posted by FCS03

I actually think his crate is a tad small for him. When he lays on his belly (legs tucked underneath him), his bottom touches the divider and his nose hits the crate door. If he lays on his back to sleep, he has to tilt his head to the side. So it's definitely not too big. I'm pretty familiar with how to properly size a crate. Like I said, I'm pretty sure it is separation anxiety. Excessive barking, panting, he gnaws at the crate (I'll walk in and catch him- he just freezes, lol), he only urinates in his crate, not the house, while we are gone or he can't see us (does not poo in his crate or the house), and when he was being crate trained, he chewed a whole in the wall and would take chunks out of the door. He has done this since he was about 13 weeks old and we got him at 8 weeks. Every trainer and vet I have talked to says it's extreme separation anxiety and the only thing left that we haven't tried that they have suggested is drug therapy and I just would hate to drug up a puppy. I would love to be able to exercise him more, but I when I ask the trainers they tell me not to since he is growing and we want to do either agility or flying disk competitions with him. He just has so much energy! More than his little bones can take! It wouldn't be a problem if we could do more stuff with him without putting his development at risk. We love to go hiking with our dogs and we run.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just going to have to go with drug therapy because there doesn't seem to be any other options.

Sirmiq had pretty bad Separation anxiety as well. He was fine in his crate, until we left the room. As soon as we left, he would start freaking out. Because of the state he was in, he would not use kongs, or other toys while in the crate. He got out a couple of times and ripped up the carpet in front of the door. He would also pee or poo sometimes, because at a young age, with the excitement, he could not control his bladder. What really helped him, and I started it on the weekends, was putting him in the crate after a walk, for nap time. The reason why I started it on the weekends is because I would stay in the room with him during this "nap time". It helps if they don't think every time they go in the crate you leave them.

I can see you have a busy morning schedule already, but is there anyway you could fit in a walk before he goes in the crate. If you can't do a walk maybe some obedience training then? If you have a backyard a light game of fetch would work too. The trainers are right about the excerise. I think the recommendation is 5 minutes per month of age. But it does vary some on dog. I would not force a dog to jog along side you, but a little bit of running for the dog is fine, especially if it is on grass. If I have a dog that likes to fetch, I like to use it as a reward during obedience work.

[FCS03]

Ok. So here's what we are doing in hopes that it works. We bought him a new crate with a nice comfy bed and an x-pen. The crate attaches to the pen so he can go into it without the crate taking up any space. We think that we may not be getting the crate clean enough and so it is also enticing him to pee there and now we don't have to worry about our walls, door frames, and (now) baseboards when he stays in the bathroom. We also talked to our vet, who also has an Australian Shepherd (3), and he said that walking him more is fine just don't let him run. In fact, he thinks we should be up to 3-4 miles with him soon. He said that you have to handle herding breeds differently because they are bred to be doing something and are very tough. With them, developmentally, you have to be careful with the jumping, twisting, and pivoting that they like to do, especially when they aren't tired.

So here's the game plan:

My husband and I are going to get up at 5:00 in the mornings to go walk with Sawyer for 45-60 minutes. And then continue on with our regular schedule. He won't be in the x-pen for when I have to be gone and it's not a planned training absence, he will be in his regular crate. But basically I am going to try more desensitization but we got more helpful instructions on it from my vet's colleague than other piece of literature we have read since it's for extreme anxiety. Then in the afternoons he will have another 30-45 minute walk and if he isn't tired out, he will be put on the treadmill.

I am hoping that this plan works. If it doesn't, it will be puppy Prozac for him. But the whole plan is about 6 weeks long.

[jenn2004sj]

Originally Posted by FCS03

Ok. So here's what we are doing in hopes that it works. We bought him a new crate with a nice comfy bed and an x-pen. The crate attaches to the pen so he can go into it without the crate taking up any space. We think that we may not be getting the crate clean enough and so it is also enticing him to pee there and now we don't have to worry about our walls, door frames, and (now) baseboards when he stays in the bathroom. We also talked to our vet, who also has an Australian Shepherd (3), and he said that walking him more is fine just don't let him run. In fact, he thinks we should be up to 3-4 miles with him soon. He said that you have to handle herding breeds differently because they are bred to be doing something and are very tough. With them, developmentally, you have to be careful with the jumping, twisting, and pivoting that they like to do, especially when they aren't tired.

So here's the game plan:

My husband and I are going to get up at 5:00 in the mornings to go walk with Sawyer for 45-60 minutes. And then continue on with our regular schedule. He won't be in the x-pen for when I have to be gone and it's not a planned training absence, he will be in his regular crate. But basically I am going to try more desensitization but we got more helpful instructions on it from my vet's colleague than other piece of literature we have read since it's for extreme anxiety. Then in the afternoons he will have another 30-45 minute walk and if he isn't tired out, he will be put on the treadmill.

I am hoping that this plan works. If it doesn't, it will be puppy Prozac for him. But the whole plan is about 6 weeks long.

It sounds like a very good plan. Good luck and keep us posted on how it is going. The only thing I would consider in your plan, is mental stimulation. If after the second walk, if he is still hyper, try doing something more mentally simulating. Or on one of the walks try doing some mental work instead of just walking. Herding dogs are extremely intelligent and learn quickly, there are a lot of different games and tricks you can teach them. With Kiwi we have been working on activities that require her to distingiush between different objects, and put the objects in different buckets, and she is doing great with it, and I have noticed a difference in her behavior just because she has to think.

[FCS03]

We still have a lot of training to do with him. He knows sit, stay, down, come, back (his emergency recall), stand, wait, spin, and leave it. All with distractions and we are working on roll-over and drop it. He gets a lot of mini-training sessions. We want him to pick up all the dog toys on command and put them in their basket, but the drop-it command has been the toughest for him to learn so far. Today he was pretty tuckered out from the walk that he slept for 5 hours off and on.

[Ritz459]

Originally Posted by FCS03

Ok. So here's what we are doing in hopes that it works. We bought him a new crate with a nice comfy bed and an x-pen. The crate attaches to the pen so he can go into it without the crate taking up any space. We think that we may not be getting the crate clean enough and so it is also enticing him to pee there and now we don't have to worry about our walls, door frames, and (now) baseboards when he stays in the bathroom. We also talked to our vet, who also has an Australian Shepherd (3), and he said that walking him more is fine just don't let him run. In fact, he thinks we should be up to 3-4 miles with him soon. He said that you have to handle herding breeds differently because they are bred to be doing something and are very tough. With them, developmentally, you have to be careful with the jumping, twisting, and pivoting that they like to do, especially when they aren't tired.

So here's the game plan:

My husband and I are going to get up at 5:00 in the mornings to go walk with Sawyer for 45-60 minutes. And then continue on with our regular schedule. He won't be in the x-pen for when I have to be gone and it's not a planned training absence, he will be in his regular crate. But basically I am going to try more desensitization but we got more helpful instructions on it from my vet's colleague than other piece of literature we have read since it's for extreme anxiety. Then in the afternoons he will have another 30-45 minute walk and if he isn't tired out, he will be put on the treadmill.

I am hoping that this plan works. If it doesn't, it will be puppy Prozac for him. But the whole plan is about 6 weeks long.

Definitally sounds like a plan, and I hope everything goes smoothly!

[Dogsareme]

It could be excited peeing? He could get excited when he hears you coming through the door, knows you will be looking in on him or letting him out and gets excited and wets himself? Maybe it only happens in his crate because he gets overly excited about the prospect of getting out of it?

Excited peeing is usually something they grow out of......It would be pretty hard to die down the excitment of getting out of the kennel. Most times you just start to ignore the dog during times they would do excited peeing to have them stop it, but this one is a tough situation to try and stop.