Lab, Springer Spaniel??

[Sayuri]

For future reference, you'll find people will have a much easier time distinguishing between quotations and your own personal statements if you set them off by using the quotation button. Hope this helps!

[GreenleafGreyhound]

Originally Posted by tessa_s212

Greanleaf--I believe that you missed this post of mine.

No, that just reinforces my side. You guys are intermixing instinct with intelligence, basing a dog's intelligence on his ability to work. By saying conformation breeders breed the dog's working ability out (i.e. will/instinct to work) and by claiming that dogs from conformation breeders are subsequently "dumber", that just proves that you ARE basing intelligence on instinct.

The point is you can't gain or lose intelligence through selective breeding, no matter what purpose the dog is being bred for. The reason for that is because intelligence cannot be defined to one single sentence or paragraph. Do the SAT's prove one's intelligence? Academically, they quite effectively show how much "knowledge" you acquired and how well you can apply those concepts. But do they prove one's intelligence? No! You can't base a dog's intelligence, or any animal, through one field. If intelligence was so black and white (field Vs. show), do you really think we'd have all these conflicts regarding the usefullness of tests and similar criteria to "prove" one's intelligence?

Your initial quote said that conformation bred dogs are less intelligent because they weren't bred to work. So have you now just proved that construction workers are more intelligent that rocket scientists?

[tessa_s212]

Working breeds such as the border collie HAVE to be intelligent. They HAVE to be able to think on their own. Yes, part of it is instinct. BUT, intelligence also comes into play. Some breeds trully are just more intelligent than others, because of selective breeding.

So, is what you are saying is that all breeds are equally intelligent? Is a cocker spaniel just as smart as a terrier or a border collie?

[GreenleafGreyhound]

Ahh you see? Here enters the gnawing question, "What is intelligence and can we measure it?"

*sighs* Ok, Tessa, I've said this in all my posts, but I'll say it again: Intelligence can not be defined into a single sentence or paragraph. It is a complex function of the mind. Nobody can measure how much intelligence a certain animal or human possesses. Therefore, when you say working Border Collies are more intelligent...Well, couldn't you just as easily rephrase that into "Border Collies are trained and bred to comply with their owner's commands." Does that mean that the working Border Collie is much more intelligent than, let's say, a Greyhound due to this reason? No. BCs have just been bred for the sole purpose to listen to humans and constantly interact with them, whereas Greyhounds were bred to think for themselves as a pack with little to no interaction with humans. Like you said, some breeds have to *think for themselves*. Indeed, some do, especially the Greyhound. So when you consider how much Greyhounds think for themselves, why do you think they're ranked among the lowest on "intelligence" lists? Because nobody can definitely say that A is intelligent and B is unintelligent. Because nobody can define intelligence.

So, is what you are saying is that all breeds are equally intelligent? Is a cocker spaniel just as smart as a terrier or a border collie?

In a sense, yes. Intelligence is currently defined as the capacity and ability to acquire knowledge. But how can you measure how much intelligence one breed possesses when you don't even know how much knowledge the breed can acquire? So until somebody can come up with a magic explanation or test to see who or what is really more intelligent, then, yes, all breeds are equally intelligent. Heck, I don't even agree that sentence, because intelligence is a case by case issue.

[CricketPug]

I have to agree 100% with Sayuri and GreenLeaf here. Intelligence is not something that can be measured or truly defined in a simple phrase.

I am one who needs CONCRETE evidence, so, Tessa, where are the case studies and scientific findings linking initial purpose in breedings to intelligence quotients in dogs? I have yet to find any, especially ones with significant findings linking "working" lines with more intelligence than "conformation" lines.

Also, has it ever occured to you that perhaps the reason that you don't see very many showdogs in performace events is because their owners have a lack of time or interest in them? Or because the owner is not willing to take the risks involved during the show career of their dog? Many times owners are not interested in testing the instict/ability of their dog in their original purpose, and therefore it is not the dog that fails, but rather the dog is never given a chance to succeed. Also, I know when it comes to my Aussie, other than testing his instinct, we will not be putting him on stock until after he is done with his show career as we do not want to risk a career-threatening injury to him before he is finished (ie: kicked by cattle, caught in a gate.. who knows). Many people don't do agility with their dogs until their career is done because of the strain it puts on the dog's joints. That coupled with the strain of being on the road is like stress overload and can cause a loss in performance in both events.

[Sayuri]

Cricketpug and Greenleaf are right on, in my opinion. I don't know how many times I've had to explain to people that what some call intelligent behavior in a Border Collie would be down right moronic behavior in a Shiba - like Greyhounds, Shibas are *truly* independent workers. They hunt, fight, and bring down their prey with little to no guidance from the owner when it comes to wild boar (and other such dangerous game) - after all, what could he say that would be advantageous to listen to during a lightning quick fight to the death? The decisions a Shiba has to make must be made in a split second - and this means making decisions on one's own, without the guidance of an owner saying "swing" this way, or "come" that way. Waiting for such commands, turning back to see if he's on the right track - that dog just bought itself a one-way ticket to skewer-ville. (Of course, Shibas can also be trained to hunt non-threatening game, such as copper pheasant, with great success). The problem with this for most people is that they have learned to look at canine intelligence in a very limited way - a dog is "smart" if it learns behaviors and commands quickly, repeats them with low rates of failure, and is willing to please. This is because a great deal of the dog-owning population has a breed that fits these criteria, and because the population at large has been fed a media-diet that espouses this view. Thus it becomes very difficult for people to understand that there are different *kinds* of intelligence, and that what is smart for one breed, may not be intelligent for another. Shibas learn commands quickly, but they learn just as quickly how to manipulate an owner by choosing when to perform these behaviors, and when not to. They learn to ask "why?" when someone says sit, instead of saying "sure, why not? What else can I do?" I'd say that's one wicked brand of intelligence. Not many owners would be thrilled to have a Border Collie that acted like this, and I'd be pretty distressed to meet a Shiba that acted like a Border. The point is, I can see an intelligent Shiba's mind at work, and I can see an intelligent Border's mind work - but they work in exceptionally different ways, ways that would not lend themselves to comparison.

I think CricketPug brought up another very valid point in stating that

Also, has it ever occured to you that perhaps the reason that you don't see very many showdogs in performace events is because their owners have a lack of time or interest in them? Or because the owner is not willing to take the risks involved during the show career of their dog? Many times owners are not interested in testing the instict/ability of their dog in their original purpose, and therefore it is not the dog that fails, but rather the dog is never given a chance to succeed.

I know *dozens* of show people that made this exact decision - heck, you might as well call me one of them. I just don't have the money and wherewithal to send my dogs to Japan to participate in wild boar hunting tests, and even if I did, I wouldn't do it for several reasons - first, I'm not fond of killing *anything,* and second, I just wouldn't risk my dogs - hunting wild boar isn't exactly playing parchesi. I have several friends with sighthounds that made the conscious decision *not* to lure course, due to risk of injury. In *all* of these cases, none of the decisions were made due to lack of instinct, ability, or intelligence. You should see my b1tch when she sees pig - it would put the fear of Dog in you! You should see my dog prance proudly about the backyard, possum in his mouth. You should see both of them race and pounce through tall grasses, see them tracking, see them drop dead rats on the front porch. You should see my breeder's dogs catch birds midflight. You should see my friend's Afghan bring down wild rabbits in her back yard. They've all still got the instincts - for one reason or another, we just chose not to pursue the titles that *say* they do.

I'd also like to know what you think about dual-titled animals? What about dogs that show and have their lure coursing titles, their JHs, or herding titles?

[Crossfire Bulldogs]

As someone who shows conformation and breeds I'm sitting here watching this thread with interest. Hmmmmm. Soooo many things I could say yet most has already been said, I almost wanna pick up my unintelligent dogs and just quietly go roll in my millions of dollars. lol Sorry couldn't resist that one. Carry on....... **sits on hands to keep them away from the keyboard**

[tessa_s212]

Originally Posted by GreenleafGreyhound

. Therefore, when you say working Border Collies are more intelligent...Well, couldn't you just as easily rephrase that into "Border Collies are trained and bred to comply with their owner's commands." Does that mean that the working Border Collie is much more intelligent than, let's say, a Greyhound due to this reason? So when you consider how much Greyhounds think for themselves, why do you think they're ranked among the lowest on "intelligence" lists?

Did I ever say that Greyhounds are ranked among the lowest. CERTAINLY not. I know for a fact that Greyhounds are very intelligent. Most sighthounds are very intelligent. In fact, I train a basenji mix and I KNOW from experience that they are very intelligent and can manipulate their owners very well if you let them.

Now, maybe I'll never be able to 'measure' intelligence but I can tell you one thing. NONE of my cockers have even come close to that dog's thinking ability.

Certain breeds WERE bred for differenent purposes. When you look at the purposes, certainly some of them require a very intelligent dog to be able to do that. And some purposes, well they just don't.

Maybe by your standards I will never be able to 'measure' intelligence. I can only tell you what I've learned and what I know from experience.

[tessa_s212]

Originally Posted by Sayuri

I'd also like to know what you think about dual-titled animals? What about dogs that show and have their lure coursing titles, their JHs, or herding titles?

I have already told you this, but maybe I was not clear enough.

I am ALL for breeding dogs that CAN do both conformation AND *what they were originally bred to do*. In fact, it is my opinion that certain breeds such as springers, border collies should HAVE to have at least one field test title, or herding title, before they are allowed to obtain their CH. It is the only way to insure that the instinct will be passed on....because right now we are losing all that instinct in the show bred border collies and springers. (Please note: I understand that there ARE dogs that can do both. I've even talked to some of those handlers and breeders by means of email. But, up here in ohio and around in MI you don't see those dogs. You see the very large, big boned, very furry and 'perfectly marked' dogs that have very little, or close to none at all, instinct.)

And I'm not just talking about border collies and springers. I'm talking about all herding dogs, sporting dogs, hounds, and terriers... any breed that still has means to test and do what they were originally bred to do.

Now, I think you are all getting me wrong. I am NOT some biased, ignorant, conformation hating person. I love to handle dogs! I believe conformation can be a good thing. In fact, I will be getting a Border collie from a conformation/herding breeder this winter that I plan on showing in both jrs and conformation. This dog will also herd from a young age, if I can find a place in my area that has herding or instructors. I will also compete in agility and obedience all along while showing this dog.

[GreenleafGreyhound]

Originally Posted by tessa_s212

Did I ever say that Greyhounds are ranked among the lowest. CERTAINLY not. I know for a fact that Greyhounds are very intelligent. Most sighthounds are very intelligent. In fact, I train a basenji mix and I KNOW from experience that they are very intelligent and can manipulate their owners very well if you let them.

I never said you did. But I have seen published and online lists and various articles about the most "intelligent" breed (often Border Collies). Greyhounds are most often ranked at the bottom rung. Out of 70-something dogs, they'll rank 60-70. Of course, as an owner of one, I'm very much biased. However, if you've been around one, you'll know that these dogs are intelligent, except not in the way one would describe a Border Collie.

At any rate, we'll be awaiting the pics of your new arrival and your current pups. Good luck with the pup in the ring, too!

[tessa_s212]

Originally Posted by GreenleafGreyhound

So when you consider how much Greyhounds think for themselves, why do you think they're ranked among the lowest on "intelligence" lists?

Ahh,... Okay. I re-read it and now understand.

I think many people define intelligence as a dog willing to obey its owner. That is not intelligence, just a willing to please dog....

I do understand where you are getting at.

[GreenleafGreyhound]

Whoo Hoo! You got my point! That's exactly what I was getting at

[tessa_s212]

Well, Why didn't you say so earlier!

(That's always been my definition as intelligence all along.)

[armyguy]

So, you want another companion and you're looking at specific breeds. Having helped trained numerous different breeds I always look for the chance to start on the ground floor. The question of which breed is really not the issue. The first questions should be about your lifestyle. Do you do a lot of outdoor activities, camp a lot, work too long during the week. What do I have for living space for the new addition? Do I have enough space to allow a large breed to exercise when I don't have enough time for him? Can I keep him physically fit? This may seem like a stupid question but some breeds, like rotties, need constant exercise or they become bratwurst with legs. Can I take the new guy with me on most excursions/vacations? Then there are always the question of which breed. Can I look after their nutritional needs correctly? What is their level of activity? What are their instincts? Am I going to buy a pure breed or save a “heinz 57” from the pound? Do I want a puppy and the trials that come with them or an older dog and try to intigrate him to my lifestyle? What really ticks me off is when people look at my dogs and want a lab just like them. They have no idea of the training and patience it took to get them here nor do they want to do it. But I digress... Every breed has it's quirks. Sporting dogs will always be hunting, working class will always protect, herding dogs will always try to round something up for you, etc, etc, etc. The main point is to look at what breed will best fit your lifestyle for the next 12 to 15 years not which breed is better.

[gaddylovesdogs]

What's an average lab/springer spaniel puppy? Are they hyper? Timid? Labs tend to be hyper and very energetic until about two years of age.

What's an average adult lab/springer like? Some are very energetic but May is very calm and docile. They love exercise and hate to be seperated from their families.

How much of a bond will a lab/springer make with one person? May is very attached to me. She is attached to the rest of my family but we have a very special bond.

Do they like to swim? We live close to a dog beach. Mayberry absolutely loves to swim. If we could do it every day she would enjoy it so much.