Lab, Springer Spaniel??

[Tarragon]

Hello,

Next summer we have been seriously thinking about getting another dog. Currently we have a non-agressive 10-year-old medium mix breed. I have been thinking of either a border collie, lab, or springer spaniel. I did plenty of research on each breed but I wanted to come somewhere where I could talk to people who actually have these dogs. So if any one in this section has a lab or a springer I would like to know some questions!

What's an average lab/springer spaniel puppy? Are they hyper? Timid?

What's an average adult lab/springer like?

How much of a bond will a lab/springer make with one person?

Do they like to swim? We live close to a dog beach.

Thank you to anyone who anwsers!! I am also posted this on the herding forum for the border. And of corse I will do A LOT more research on these breeds before I get one.

[annie_so_pink]

[quote]What's an average lab/springer spaniel puppy? Are they hyper? Timid? What's an average adult lab/springer like? How much of a bond will a lab/springer make with one person? Do they like to swim? We live close to a dog beach?[quote]

First of all Congratulations about getting a puppy!
I have a 6 month old Black Lab puppy, so I might be able to help you with that but, I couldn't say anything about a Springer Spaniel.

My Lab puppy can be very hyper. Sometimes if he hasn't gotten enough exercise, he will just take off and run around in circles in the house! So, yes they are hyper. But, when he is tired out you can just pick him up and he will fall right asleep in your arms!
He is timid sometimes but he was a rescue puppy so that might be just because of his background.

I couldn't say anything about an adult because mine is still a puppy himself.....Sorry

My lab pup has bonded wonderfully to the whole family! He especially loves my dad, but he loves the rest of us too.

My lab absolutely LOVES to swim! So far he likes the kiddie pool better than the lake but he is liking it more and more as he gets older. So, a dog beach would be great for a lab!

If you have any more questions don't hesitate to ask!

[Mellie]

I have shared my entire life with Springer Spaniels. I absolutely adore the breed and will never be without (at least) one.
They are wonderful family pets; and active, intelligent companions.

Your questions:
"What's an average lab/springer spaniel puppy? Are they hyper? Timid?"
Generally, Springer Spaniel puppies are energetic and active. They need to be exercised quite a bit on a daily basis. They are also active indoors, as well. If you want a couch potato, do not get a Springer. If you run, hike, swim, etc.... Springers make excellent partners for those activities. They are known to be smart and loyal. They are eager to please, so training them often goes quite easily. But training definitely needs to be consistent and often, because they might get anxious if bored. I'd say they lean more to the hyper end of the spectrum than the timid end.

What's an average adult lab/springer like?
A Springer's average life span is somewhere between 12-15 years. They are prone to certain medical conditions, such as hip dysplasia, eye conditions, and ear infections. But a well cared for Springer can be happy and healthy well into his/her golden years. An adult Springer maintains a high activity level (I ran with my Daisy still when she was 12 years old... just not as fast or far). Once grown and trained (ie: once a puppy has fulfilled his/her potential), they are like part of the family. They love their people, and tend to want to be near their people as much as possible. I cannot say enough good things about this breed, but I, of course, am biased.

How much of a bond will a lab/springer make with one person? You might find the a Springer will pick a favorite person, although s/he will still love all members of the family. They bond strongly to their person. My beloved Springer, Jake (who passed almost a year ago), was my soul mate of a dog. He would not go anywhere unless I was going, too. My poor boyfriend couldn't get him to go out to potty unless I was going out, too. If my boyfriend walked him and our other dog, Jake would not go out of eye sight of the house unless I was with him. Our bond was very strong and Jake made it clear that I was his #1 person. He still loved my boyfriend, but he bonded with me immediately and was devoted to me. My parents' Springer, Winnie, is the same way toward my mother. And Waldo (who passed 3 months ago) also bonded more with me than my boyfriend. Our current Springer, Bubba, does not play favorites and is just a big love bug with everyone.

Do they like to swim? We live close to a dog beach.
I have never met a Springer that does not like water.

Good luck with your ultimate decision.

If you do seriously consider a Springer, may I suggest the Springer Spaniel Rescue Organization? I adopted my last 3 Springers from them. From the national link, below, you can find regional sites for your area.
http://www.springerrescue.org/
Also, here is a link with commonly asked questions and answers about Springers.
http://www.ariel-ess.com/essfaq/

[tessa_s212]

If this is your first dog a Border Collie is definitely not the dog for you. Border Collies are an extremely high maintenance breed. They have high prey drives and will nip at people's heels if not corrected early on as a puppy due to their extreme herding instincts.

http://www.bordercollie.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi is a BC forum. It is dedicated to the working breed, and everyone there is very experienced with border collies. They will be able to answer any of your questions.




Labs are a great breed if bred correctly. You see alot of over sized, leggy, hyper labs these days. A well bred lab should be energetic, but willing to settle down when told to.


My sister just got a new english springer spaniel puppy. They are great, energet, willing to please, and goofy dogs. If you get the field bred type of springer you will see that they are much smarter than your conformation bred ones.

[GreenleafGreyhound]

Originally Posted by tessa_s212

My sister just got a new english springer spaniel puppy. They are great, energet, willing to please, and goofy dogs. If you get the field bred type of springer you will see that they are much smarter than your conformation bred ones.

I've never seen a more false statement.

A dog's body build has NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING to do with its intelligence. Intelligence is not something that can be measured through a dog's pedigree or purpose of being bred. Intelligence is something that can be cultured and refined into almost an art. It isn't something black and white, in where you can point to an AKC BIS winner and say, "That dog has no brains". When dealing with the mind, nothing is black and white. Heck, who can even DEFINE intelligence?!

You could be street smart, but not quite as "smart" in academics. You could find your way through a map, but not through a simple textbook. Intelligence is not something you can measure. You simply can't, and I find it quite demeaning that you would generalize a whole group of dogs by claiming them less intelligent.

[Tarragon]

Thanks for the replys! I've pretty much decided that I can't get the border. Reading about their personality they sound like they would do best on a LARGE hunk of land.

Lab and Springer are still both up there though. I am looking forward to a dog that is hyper, and loves to jump on you and give you kisses. Springers have always been one of my favorites but I have heard of something called "Springer Rage" where the brain has seizers (i believe thats what it said) and the dog go "wild". That's the main thing I am worried about. Any insight on that...?

[Ritz459]

I've never had a springer, but I practically grew up with Blackie, so I can tell you about Labs.

What's an average lab/springer spaniel puppy? Are they hyper? Timid?

Well, Blackie was once upon a time a pup, and he was one hyper pup! He loved to run non-stop, chew, chase us, play fetch, jump, and basically act like a huge, tree eating goofball.
I also watched a friends 6month old Golden Retriever, and basically, if she wasn't chewing on something, we were playing fetch. She did settle down a couple of times though, but man she wore me out.
A Labrador puppy, IMO, isn't timid. Now, I'm sure you can find timid pups, but a normal Labrador from a good breeder is a happy-go-lucky, wants-to-kiss-and-chew-on-everbody kind of dog.

What's an average adult lab/springer like?

Blackie didn't start mellowing out until about 3 years of age, and even then he was still up for a good run. He just didn't chew, jump, and chase as much. That was also about when he started developing his dislike toward other dogs and his guarding attitude. (But for the latter part, I think that is the Rottie in him, and his normal "dominant male" thing going on.)
So basically, when he hit three, he became a wonderful dog. No more puppy terror, but still playful. And then when he hit about 8, that was when he started slowing down and he wasn't able to keep up on bikerides anymore.

How much of a bond will a lab/springer make with one person?

Well, Blackie loves just about everybody, but he does have his special bond with the family. Labradors are a lap dog. Sure, they may weigh around 80lbs, but they are still a lap dog. The love to show their affection toward people and will most always greet you with a happy smile and a wag of their tail.

Do they like to swim? We live close to a dog beach.

Do ducks fly? Labs LOVE to swim. Blackie gets into every mud puddle on our walks, and loves to swim in the creek near our house. (Which we can't go to anymore because of loose neighborhood dogs. )
We took Blackie to our Grandma's house once and he went swimming in her lake. He LOVED it and we couldn't get him to get out of the lake.


I don't really know much about springers, but these sites: www.yourpurebredpuppy.com ; www.dogbreedinfo.com ; www.dogfancy.com should help you out a bit.
And keep in mind: Springers need to be clipped every so often, and they still shed a bunch. Labs just shed a bunch. lol

[tessa_s212]

Greenleaf--I have to disagree.

Field bred spaniels are bred to WORK. They have to be more intelligent than your average conformation springer. Most conformation springer breeders only breed for looks-color and markings, right size, etc., etc. When you only breed for looks you also start to breed intelligence out of the dog.


"You have to see first hand what a REAL (and I do mean "real") Border Collie can do compared to a Barbie Collie.

I've had Border Collies for ten years now, going on eleven (more then half my lifetime). They have been a big part of my growth and development. I use to be one that thought conformation dogs were amazing, beautiful, and just the best because they were named Champions. Just like millions around the world think because of Kennel Clubs and people placing so much on two litters, "CH."

Then I started herding with my dog. She was amazing. Her first time out to see sheep was like magic. She swept out in a perfect naturally wide out run and came directly behind her sheep like any good breed Border Collie should. I still get the same rush that I got then every time I see a correctly breed dog on sheep. It is nothing short of amazing.

A few lessons in, I started watching other dogs, just like you watch other dogs run agility. I made not of the dogs looks, their breeds, and even asked owners what breeding they were from. It wasn't hard, even from the start, to pick which dogs were conformation breed.

Border Collies are suppose to sweep around their sheep without disturbing them from sheer instinct. But watching people bring in their conformation dogs I could tell from right off before then even walked into the pen what they were breed for. The Barbie Collies would walk in, look their owners, walk around eating sheep poop, check all the fence lines, and just do anything to keep from coming in contact with the sheep. The trainer (one of the top in the United States) would beg the dogs to come on, to show just the slightest interest in sheep. Some Barbie's would just about out right attack the sheep but the others preferred to stay back and let the handler move them.

Then they'd bring in the young pups (like 6 mo. - some younger) REAL Border Collies and they'd go right to work. Nice outruns, good balance, and just really nice put pups, doing nothing more then what they were breed to do.

Now, this is just working ability.

Us, as a working dog community, breed for nothing but soundness (correct build for moving which the dog must when working livestock, which is nothing like conformation dogs), health, temperament, and working ability. All of these factors are equally important to all working dog breeders for a all around should dog is the dog that is going to make the best working and trial dog. We do NOT breed unstable or unhealthy dogs because the dogs would be unfit to do the job we breed them for.

But when you breed for the show ring, anything goes. Because they don't care about the dogs body's ability to withstand life, its ability to work, temperament, or how intelligent it is in the show ring. They want the color, stack, correct shaped eyes, and ear set that will make their dogs a champion and bring them in millions of dollars for pups and stud fees.


A Working Dog's Best Friend"

This person explained it much better than I ever could have.

This link will also help to explain to you:
http://bordercollie.heatherweb.com/c...=008891#000000

[Sayuri]

But when you breed for the show ring, anything goes. Because they don't care about the dogs body's ability to withstand life, its ability to work, temperament, or how intelligent it is in the show ring. They want the color, stack, correct shaped eyes, and ear set that will make their dogs a champion and bring them in millions of dollars for pups and stud fees.

I don't mean to go completely OT, but here's where I wouldn't mind making a few points, in defense of those of us that participate in conformation, and are *not* going about it the wrong way. What you've described above is not a good breeder - it's not the type of behavior or attitude anyone that is truly serious about their breed wants to be taken as representative of their community.

When you breed for the show ring, anything goes? Haha - AS IF! Maybe that's true for your breed - I wouldn't know as I'm not involved in Border Collies, though I do understand there's a lot of strife and argumentation between show and working breeders - but in Shibas, that's as far from true as you can get. Anything certainly DOES NOT go. Crappy temperaments - quite frankly, who on earth wants a mentally unbalanced, aggressive spitz type that is perfectly capable of disembowling a wild boar? Any takers? I didn't think so. Those of us in the breed that show and know what we are doing understand that a Shiba should demonstrate a good nature, gentle disposition, faithfulness, and obedience - these attributes combined are described as "ryosei" and a Shiba that doesn't have them just isn't a Shiba. It's ESSENTIAL that they display this quality. The dog should also have a modest, and genuine spirit, one that is without artifice or vulgarity - we call this "soboku." And finally, the Shiba, to temper and balance the previous characteristics, should have "kan-i:" a bravery, boldness, alertness, and dignity. We want all of these characteristics to be present in our dogs, *along* with excellent structure and movement, supreme health, and typiness. Call me crazy, but I like the idea of breeding for the total package - a beautiful dog that has a shotty temperament or that breaks down on workouts? Sorry, but that's not getting bred. An incorrectly marked or colored dog with some other conformational errors but an excellent temperament? Nope - he'll make a wonderful pet for someone, but I'll wait to find the dog that has it *all.* There's no hurry in breedings, as far as I'm concerned. Why not wait for that near perfect specimen?

It may not be of concern in other breeds, but for Shibas, typiness is still important. For one thing, not many of us are out there hunting wild boar with our dogs anymore - so *only* breeding for working ability does not make sense. For another, NIPPO was established so that the true Japanese breeds could be preserved in their entirety - if everyone in NIPPO started going "screw coat quality and ear set, or size doesn't really matter" eventually you wouldn't have a Shiba at all, just some mishmash or amalgam of what they used to be. And as much as some might not agree, most of us in Shibas do agree that coat quality, ear set, size, tail set, etc. actually ARE related to function. We want a sashio tail for a REASON - not just because it looks good but because it makes the ideal rudder for an animal sprinting, turning and twisting while it hunts the wild boar. Similarly, an over large dog is not going to be able to maneouvre the way that a Shiba-sized dog is.

I want to add that this does not mean our dogs DON'T have working ability. There are hunting trials being held in Japan, many people in the states are discovering the joy of hunting with their Shibas, my breeder has several dogs that have participated in wild boar hunts, and I've seen my dogs' instincts in action - and also seen them bring prey down.

As for intelligence - my show dog (and my pet boy from the same breeder) are WICKED smart.

We don't care about the dogs' ability to withstand life? That's another gross generalization of conformation breeders. Why all of the health tests then? The OFAs, the CERFs, the screenings for thyroid problems. I know plenty of breeders (and not just in my own breed) that have decided to cut lovely dogs out of their breeding programs because of test results - these animals were never bred, and lived out their lives happily as pets without ever contributing to the gene pool. It makes me pretty sick to think that working people honestly believe that conformation people don't give a crud about quality of life. Not true in the least.

And finally, millions of dollars in stud fees and puppies? HAHAHAHAHA! Where do you think this money comes from? The reputable breeders in conformation are certainly not raking in this cash - I'd love to know who you think IS - or who you KNOW is, because no one I know that is a reputable breeder is making money. Good breeders are lucky to ever break *even* on a litter - most of the time they're in the hole after spending the money on health tests and checks, show entries, food, supplies, and time - I believe Crossfire has a wonderful sticky up in the breeder section called "The Cost of Raising a Litter" (I may be wrong on the poster and/or title, but you'll find it in there somewhere). The prices charged buyers are there to hopefully recoup some of those losses so that that money can, guess what, go straight back into the breeding program. I don't know anyone decent that is making millions because of dog breeding. It's a passion and hobby - not a business.

I can understand your frustration regarding the disparity between show and conformation Border Collies - but please don't paint everyone with the same broad strokes and generalization. To make it look as if all anyone in conformation cares about is ribbons, trophies and flash is incorrect, and quite frankly, hurtful.

Sorry to hijack your thread, Tarragon - good luck with your pup search! (It sounds as if either a Lab or a Springer would do excellently in your home).

[tessa_s212]

Sayuri--You do realize that that was a quote, right?

I did not say that. I don't agree with this person's prejudice and generalizations, but I do agree with the fact that breeders that breed for conformation only breed the working ability out of a breed.

Ideally, I believe a breeder should breed for both, while still focusing on the working aspect side of it. (Of course, not all breeds can continue to do what they were originally bred to do. ) I believe a good breeder first focuses on health and temperment, then working ability. A good working dog probably isn't terribly cowhocked, so I beleive working ability intermixes with conformation or soundness. I believe a breeder should breed for conformation, or soundness, equally to working ability.

[Mellie]

Here are some links that address "Springer Rage". I have heard about it and read about it, but I have NEVER experienced it in any of my Springers. It is rare, and is believed by many to be seizure-related. But... there's still al lot of debate out there about the syndrome, so I'd advise reading from several sources.
And keep in mind, any dog can bite under some circumstances. Don't fear that all Springers are crazy.

http://www.springershowcase.com/art1no2.htm#stephen
http://www.vetinfo.com/daggressp.html
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Con...=1&SourceID=60
http://www.essfta.org/Health_Research/aggression.htm


And here are some opinions about the breed from various people:
http://www.hoflin.com/BR/English%20Springer%20Spaniels

Happy reading!

[Sayuri]

Actually, I didn't realize that was quote. The way it was worded certainly made it seem as if you espoused these opinions and ideas -

Greenleaf--I have to disagree.

Field bred spaniels are bred to WORK. They have to be more intelligent than your average conformation springer. Most conformation springer breeders only breed for looks-color and markings, right size, etc., etc. When you only breed for looks you also start to breed intelligence out of the dog.

Here's how I must have gotten confused. You said, "Greenleaf, I have to disagree." Afterward you jumped straight into what was wrong with springer conformation breeders. So I am assuming that this is all straight from "the horse's mouth", so to speak.

Us, as a working dog community, breed for nothing but soundness (correct build for moving which the dog must when working livestock, which is nothing like conformation dogs), health, temperament, and working ability. All of these factors are equally important to all working dog breeders for a all around should dog is the dog that is going to make the best working and trial dog. We do NOT breed unstable or unhealthy dogs because the dogs would be unfit to do the job we breed them for.

But when you breed for the show ring, anything goes. Because they don't care about the dogs body's ability to withstand life, its ability to work, temperament, or how intelligent it is in the show ring. They want the color, stack, correct shaped eyes, and ear set that will make their dogs a champion and bring them in millions of dollars for pups and stud fees.

Then we get to this point - this is the exact section I was addressing. Is this where you were quoting someone else? If so, I would be remiss in not pointing out that it still seems as if it is you talking, rather than taking words from someone else. Is it your dog that is the herding dog, or someone else's? Are you the one that's been involved with Border Collies for around ten years? The quote says, "Us as a working dog community..." which makes it sound as if you're including yourself with the branch of breeders that breeds for working ability. Is this something you actually wrote yourself, or did you copy and paste from an article, another post, another person?

I really do hate to put words in people's mouths, and I hate missing information and wrongly attributing it to people. I reread your post several times and still can't find where it is that you were quoting someone rather than stating your own opinion. Also, it seemed to go along the same lines as your first post, which said:

They are great, energet, willing to please, and goofy dogs. If you get the field bred type of springer you will see that they are much smarter than your conformation bred ones.

I guess you can see why it is that I didn't have a problem believing you were continuing to state your opinion in the subsequent post.

So which person's opinions and generalizations are we talking about, exactly? I'm honestly sorry if I've mis-attributed them to you, but I've looked at it upside down, right side up, sideways, backward, and forward, and I can't for the life of me find where it is that you point out that it's not your opinion, and that those weren't your own words. Would you mind pointing out where it is that your opinion stops and another's begins? (I'm honestly curious - not trying to be rude or confrontational at all).

If it is the *link* we're talking about, however - the one that you provided at the end of the post we're discussing - well, I didn't read it. Were that the case, it remains that I would still be taking issue with words that you voluntarily wrote of your own accord, without saying "I don't agree with all of this but I'm posting it any way."

Again - apologies for misconstruing your opinion, but I'd very much appreciate clarification so that I can see where it was I may have goofed.

[tessa_s212]

Originally Posted by tessa_s212

Greenleaf--I have to disagree.

Field bred spaniels are bred to WORK. They have to be more intelligent than your average conformation springer. Most conformation springer breeders only breed for looks-color and markings, right size, etc., etc. When you only breed for looks you also start to breed intelligence out of the dog.



" You have to see first hand what a REAL (and I do mean "real") Border Collie can do compared to a Barbie Collie.

I've had Border Collies for ten years now, going on eleven (more then half my lifetime). They have been a big part of my growth and development. I use to be one that thought conformation dogs were amazing, beautiful, and just the best because they were named Champions. Just like millions around the world think because of Kennel Clubs and people placing so much on two litters, "CH."

Then I started herding with my dog. She was amazing. Her first time out to see sheep was like magic. She swept out in a perfect naturally wide out run and came directly behind her sheep like any good breed Border Collie should. I still get the same rush that I got then every time I see a correctly breed dog on sheep. It is nothing short of amazing.

A few lessons in, I started watching other dogs, just like you watch other dogs run agility. I made not of the dogs looks, their breeds, and even asked owners what breeding they were from. It wasn't hard, even from the start, to pick which dogs were conformation breed.

Border Collies are suppose to sweep around their sheep without disturbing them from sheer instinct. But watching people bring in their conformation dogs I could tell from right off before then even walked into the pen what they were breed for. The Barbie Collies would walk in, look their owners, walk around eating sheep poop, check all the fence lines, and just do anything to keep from coming in contact with the sheep. The trainer (one of the top in the United States) would beg the dogs to come on, to show just the slightest interest in sheep. Some Barbie's would just about out right attack the sheep but the others preferred to stay back and let the handler move them.

Then they'd bring in the young pups (like 6 mo. - some younger) REAL Border Collies and they'd go right to work. Nice outruns, good balance, and just really nice put pups, doing nothing more then what they were breed to do.

Now, this is just working ability.

Us, as a working dog community, breed for nothing but soundness (correct build for moving which the dog must when working livestock, which is nothing like conformation dogs), health, temperament, and working ability. All of these factors are equally important to all working dog breeders for a all around should dog is the dog that is going to make the best working and trial dog. We do NOT breed unstable or unhealthy dogs because the dogs would be unfit to do the job we breed them for.

But when you breed for the show ring, anything goes. Because they don't care about the dogs body's ability to withstand life, its ability to work, temperament, or how intelligent it is in the show ring. They want the color, stack, correct shaped eyes, and ear set that will make their dogs a champion and bring them in millions of dollars for pups and stud fees.


A Working Dog's Best Friend"

This person explained it much better than I ever could have.

This link will also help to explain to you:
http://bordercollie.heatherweb.com/c...=008891#000000

This is my fault for not being clear enough. I am sorry. I will try to make it clear, now.

Please note the bold quotation marks. Those are where the quote starts and ends. They were in the original, just not bolded. Also note the bolded, "This person ....."