for those who would knowabout the APBT/ and a LONG rant

[kcalbat]

Im not sure if ive ever asked this before but im VERY VERY confused.

Let me give some background. Last night i went up to work at Petsmart to bathe my dogs. I had Peaches (my pittie...now a year old 20 inches at shoulder and she weighs about 50 lbs) with me. I had bought her a little t shirt and some ankle warmers for Christmas and had her wear them around the store (she LOVES to wear them too!) Yea...she tends to get more attention(as a pit bull) when she wears them!


Anyhow, i was walking her back to the salon when a couple with a pit bull approached me saying "oh what a pretty dog we have a female at home who looks JUST LIKE HER"...ect ect. I started to walk towards them when i noticed something very wrong with their dog. His head was held very low, his ears back, and tail raised wagging slowly. I backed off and asked about his dog and he told me "oh yes dont get too near him he is trained for protection work" (Ok TWO THINGS VERY WRONG WITH THIS! one, protection work for a dog means distinguishing between what is a threatening situation and what is harmless, such as approaching children. That dog is an ATTACK DOG who was trained to hurt anything that got near him.Two, why the HE** did they bring a dog like that into a place like Petsmart where there are likely to be kids.) Of course me not being able to say anything all i could say is oh i would NEVER train my dogs that way, Pit Bulls already have such a bad rap and a problem with breed bans.

So he kept talking about his dog and what bloodlines he is from (uh?? this is where my question is from but hold on...this story gets worse) He was bragging about how protective his dog was and how he was muscular from all the weight pulling (the dog was only 16 months). Again i couldnt say anything so i said i still had about four more months before i could even put a harness on Peaches so i wouldnt strain her growing body. And he went ON about how he has a female at home who has already has 12 puppies (i didnt even want to ask how young she was!). Thats what really pi**** me off. ONCE AGAIN because i was at work i really couldnt say anything to them (not that it would have helped anyway) so i just point blank asked them why they would breed their dogs. They just gave me a dirty look.

Ok so we were talking and several people who passed by commented on his dog and how big and pretty he was and they wanted to pet him and each time the guy had to jerk his dog back and tell them not to get near him leaving the approaching people to walk away disgusted and scared. THIS is the how he is representing this breed. Now this is how people are going to think about pit bulls. Mean, aggressive, and unstable. ALL the hard work ive put into getting my dogs out there in public, taking them to parks (not dog parks), going up to petsmart EVERY WEEK, going as far as putting silly clothes on them to get more attention down the stinkin toilet because of THIS idiot. Whats worse is knowing that not only are there more people like him out there but this one person just distributed 12 unstable, ill bred pit bulls out into the public probably into the worst hands possible. its SO FRUSTRATING!

So i was just going to walk away when he let his dog approach Peaches (his girlfriend told him not to do that and got mad at him..and he was like "its ok its a girl dog he wont hurt her") Now Peaches who is normally a very excitably, happy, waggy-butt dog who gets very wiggly when meeting new dogs acted VERY different. She lowered her head, got real stiff, her tail didnt even wag like it usually is. I didnt even realize how scared she was! I tried to back away but i was against the outside salon door. I decided not to jerk Peaches away for fear the dog would attack that the movement, thinking she was trying to run. SO he stiffs her real careful, head really high ears back. He moves real close to her, like almost on top of her (and im freaking out but couldnt do anything....i was like you need to back off)

Then the pit sniffed down to her neck and paused suddenly and right as the guy jerked the dog back his pit growled and lunged at her. I just turned and ran into the salon as his girlfriend started screaming at him. VERY FRIGHTENING ORDEAL. Poor Peaches. She got extra lovin that night! So im calmed down now and am able to analyze all of this. Needless to say these people are no longer welcome to that Petsmart!

Ok so over that. During the conversation, he mentioned the bloodlines his dog came from. He said Gotti or something like that and this is not the first time ive heard this. These are very popular over here especially in Houston. Talking to alot of pittie owners most ask me about my dogs bloodlines (and i probably sound very unknowledgeable/ignorant to them when i tell them that i wouldnt know my dogs are the product of poor back yard breeding practices) Then they start to brag about the "bloodlines" of their dogs

For those who may show the APBT and just know about this i need your help.

I looked up these bloodlines and found some others like Razor edge, Carver, Watchdog, Camelot...and more. WHAT in the world is that? Where do these dogs come from! What is there background? Ive even seen it in Dogs USA magazine (devoted to purebreds) in some advertisments. Some of them even talk about confirmation and that they have champion bloodlines. Most advertise about protection work or weight pulling. Most dog i noticed were very bulky, extremely wide with alot of mass. These are the pits that weigh in the 100's. All claim they are UKC registered.

ok so what are these dogs? Are they purebreds? Are they mixed dogs?

Most importantly, when i meet someone like this what can i tell them? That those "bloodlines" are SH**!? haha. I really want to know. The more information i know the better i can try to educate people, to make them think twice about what they are doing breeding/training these dogs, or just put them in their place.

please help im CLUELESS!

[Sugardog]

Your right about the behavior of that pitbull. A dog trained for protection should NOT act like that. They are not vicious dogs that act and attack on their own accord. Police dogs and dogs that participate in ringsport or schutzand are actually very safe, well trained, even tempered dogs that can be trusted around small children!

Now about the bloodlines.....This is where things really can get complicated. I don't blame you for being confused. There are 4 main dogs that are usually classified as pitbulls. First is the Staffordshire bull terrier, second is the American staffordshire bull terrier. These two are AKC recognized breeds and are no where near that big. The staffordshire being 24-38 pounds and the American staffordshire being 40-79. Then there is the American Pit Bull Terrier, recognized by the UKC but not the AKC. According to UKC standards, a male should be 35-60 pounds, but " Dogs over these weights are not to be penalized unless they are disproportionately massive or rangy. " Directly quoted from the standards on www.ukcdogs.com Finally there are the mutts, which are a mix of any of those three breeds with or without other non bully breeds involved.

So my best guess would be to say that the dogs that are being advertised that weight 100+ are probably not being bred for confomation, but rather for pulling. Thus they are being bred to have big heads, big chests and overall stockiness. They can still be UKC registered as long as they are purebreds with a tracked pedigree even though they are way out of conformation and in no way are show quality.

[kcalbat]

thank you

so they give these bloodlines names like gotti and razoredge? To make them seem...important?

what would i say to someone like that? being in contact with so many of these people and dogs i get this on a regular basis im speechless when it comes to this!

[Sugardog]

Can you show me these websites where they named the bloodlines Gotti and razoredge?

At the moment, I have a feeling they might just be kennel names. Serious breeders will have kennel names so their bloodlines are easily recognizable and trackable. Mine for my shepherd is Sun Valley (cept I'm not breeding), my breeder's is Noroda Ranch, a borzoi breeder I know uses Beckonridge etc. Those go before the actual registration name of the dog like Sun Valley's Sweet Rose, Covy Tucker Hill's Manhattan, Noroda's Cranberry Juice etc.

Unfortunatly there's not much you can say or do to a person who is ignorant to their breed. You can confront them about it, but they will probably be too close minded to listen. There may be some that would be willing to listen to somebody who knows more than they do, but thats not typically the case. Just try your best.

[Cassiepeia]

Please don't post the websites here, PM them to sugardog.

I'd suggest you be very friendly and conversational and give them the address of a reputable pit bull website with 'real' pitties on it. And real info on the breed. "Just because you think they might be interested in this amazing breed" and perhaps that will get them on the road APBT education.

I don't have a site for you though, you'd have to seek one out yourself.

Cass.

[Ritz459]

*rant* Pitbulls should not be trained for ANY KIND of "protection" work. These dogs have such a strong drive that once you train them for it, that is what they put their all into. This is both good and bad...if you trained them properly, they'd put their all into that but bad training....you get the picture.*

About the bloodlines...all I can say is that I've noticed the same thing. I'm thinking about getting a Pittie pup (or a mutt would be good too ) once school is out and I've noticed on a lot of classified ads (I don't know why I look at them...they tick me off too much) they scream, "75% Razor's Edge bloodlines!" and the pups are priced for over 1,000$.

I think they are indeed a kennel name, but how reputable of a kennel remains to be seen.

[Beryl]

There are lots o "Razor's Edge" advertisements in the aback of Dog Fancy magazines. I never understood what it meant but the term didn't feel right.

[kcalbat]

Yup, alot are advertised right next to actual show breeders as if the two types of breeders are on the same level. I had thought those magazines promoted the responsible breeding of dogs.

I imagined they were kennel names except the fact that they are EVERYWHERE. Every stinkin dog has 25% of this and75 % of that so i wasnt really sure what they were. its confusing.

i agree Ritz, but whats more i think is that training these dogs that way is against the nature of a true "Pit Bull". These dogs were bred to be totally non aggressive towards human (hence being able to pick up the dog during a heated battle and not get bit in all the confusion as most breeds would) Therefore they are breeding dogs so far off from breed nature that they are creating a totally different "type" of breed that is unstable temperamentally and is a danger to society. so its no wonder why all these breed bans are created. Thats what really gets me about these people.

[Sugardog]

yeah, i did some snooping....It looks like they're just famous/well known breeding kennels/bloodlines. It appears as though Razoredge dogs are purebred, as they are UKC registered. Their description thingy also mentioned staffies, not sure what they're up to with that though.

I could do the same with my shepherd and say she is X% Covy-Tucker Hill bloodline X% Atlanta and X% Proven Hill's, which are all well known/famous bloodlines to people involved in shepherds. It's just a way of selling their animals when people say 75% razoredge and 25% gotti.

[Ritz459]

Originally Posted by kcalbat

i agree Ritz, but whats more i think is that training these dogs that way is against the nature of a true "Pit Bull". These dogs were bred to be totally non aggressive towards human (hence being able to pick up the dog during a heated battle and not get bit in all the confusion as most breeds would) Therefore they are breeding dogs so far off from breed nature that they are creating a totally different "type" of breed that is unstable temperamentally and is a danger to society. so its no wonder why all these breed bans are created. Thats what really gets me about these people.

I know. And sadly, the "human attack dogs" are the kind of dogs that people think Pitties are, when in reality, they are the exact opposite. Pit Bulls weren't even bred to guard like Dobes were, so they should have about as much human agression as a Golden Retriever. They were bred to be NOT human agressive. Just dog aggressive.
Agressive Pitties are no more the right kind of Pit Bull than an aggressive Saint Bernard or English Setter. They can be more dangerous, however, because of the will and spirit they put behind everything that they do.

[elegy]

Originally Posted by Ritz459

*rant* Pitbulls should not be trained for ANY KIND of "protection" work. These dogs have such a strong drive that once you train them for it, that is what they put their all into. This is both good and bad...if you trained them properly, they'd put their all into that but bad training....you get the picture.*

eh, it depends. a good solid bulldog trained in prey drive in protection sports *as a sport* is fine by me. i think it's a great, fun sport. but attack dog/ guard dog training? that goes against everything the pit bull has been created to be.

as far as bloodlines, they're simply that- bloodlines. mostly bred down from fighting dogs. razor's edge is one i see advertised a lot- usually big monster "pit bulls" (whether they are or not is anybody's guess, but many of them look like mastiff mixes as far as i'm concerned). it's not that hard to hang papers.

and i would suspect they're just bred for looks, nothing more. big, bulky, oversized dogs with overly big heads. often blue. nothing resembling the medium sized, moderate bodied, athletic dog who is true to the breed.

[Sugardog]

Probably. I dog doesn't have to conform perfectly to be UKC or AKC registered. In fact, it doesn't have to conform at all. I would assume thats what their doing is breeding for appearance.

One a website, their dogs supposedly had 24 inch heads which I find truely unbelievable. 24 inches is bigger than my waist

[dalfriend]

From what I understand, Razor's Edge dogs are mixed, they arent pure pits, they are mixed with Am. Bulldogs & english bulldogs. They are bred for size, not for anything else. They are horrendeously ugly IMHO, and they are most of the reason why pits have a bad rep. People who want a big pit are the ones who want them for a status symbol, so they can look "bad". There was a petition going around trying to keep their dogs from being registered with UKC since they are mixed. I will try to dig it up.

I would DEFINANTLY report this person to Pet Smart and let them know that this dog does not need to come into the store anymore. If you would have got their name I would be tempted to tell you to report them to AC since their dog is obviously very aggressive. IMHO, it is far better for AC to confiscate the dog & euthanize it than for this pit to attack someone and it be front page news.

BTW-your girl is beautiful

[rmci]

Those people are crazy to bring a dog like that into the store! And they give pitties a bad name. Very upsetting, but glad you and your dog came out ok.

[rednosered]

A blood line is exactly that , a blood line. Like my Piper is hemphill wilder blood line. Her kennel she came from was Montgomerys Pits.

The razors edge line. I honestly don't think their dogs are full pits ,but sad examples of the breed. Those dogs are so sad and unhealthy looking. I feel for them.

I'm just glad your dog didn't get hurt and everything turned out alright.