Dali & Dora & PP Here There & Everywhere

currentclassics · 09-26-2005, 02:42 PM

Please excuse the length of the post, we have some serious issues to address with our pets, and I thought I should establish some background.

My husband and I have 2 dogs, Dali, a Rat Terrier male, aged 2yrs & 11 mos. and Dora, a Jack Russell/Rat Terrier mix female, aged 2 years & 9mos.I got Dali at 8weeks from a breeder, Dora was adopted from a co-worker at about 12 weeks, he was obviously neglecting her, leaving her alone in his apartment for 12hr stretches, then complaining about "the mess she was making", etc. I corrected him about his treatment of her and he suggested I take her. Her and Dali took to each other fine, although I think she intimidated him some initially. They were both neutered/spayed at about 6/7 mos.

I lived in a large, upstairs apartment with the 2 of them until they were about 12 mos. old. My 24 yr. old son shared the apt. with me, also. Prior to getting Dora, Dali had become accustomed to spending his alone time in the apartment confined in one of those large, collapsible, 6 sided gate enclosures, his water, toys and a puppy pad inside with him. The first time we put Dora inside with him, she immediately climbed UP and over and that was that. They both did fairly well in their housebreaking progress, they were walked 6-9 times daily by myself or my son. I did leave the puppy pads in the bathroom when they were at home alone and any toileting accidents were generally confined to the pads by the time they were about a year old.

Dali and Dora are VERY, VERY active, exhuberant dogs, they never walk, they run,etc, just full of life. Dali was a much more affectionate puppy and much easier to engage than Dora. The neglect she suffered when she was small REALLY showed all the way up until she was about 2. She did not seem want to be petted or held except occassionally when SHE initiated it, and it was extremely difficult to get her to even LOOK up in your direction when called. Dali would be right on our heels, eager to play or just for attention in general and she would be across the romm, frantically chewing a raw-hide treat. They were both horribly difficult to leash train for their walks.

I married the fella I had been seeing since they were tiny when they were about a year old, we moved into a LARGE, one-level house with mostly glass walls, floor-to-ceiling. It has a doggy door that they utilized immediately and a very large, fenced back yard. They ADORE the house and are BOTH very happy dogs now, Dora has become almost as eager for affection as Dali, though she seems sort of awkward and almost stiff about it, poor thing. They are both constantlyrunning in and out of the house through their door...any little noise, etc and a lot of times, it seems they are just running to and fro for fun. When we are home, we try to keep our eye on them & virtually every time we see them urinating, it is outside, though there is plenty of evidence that proves otherwise inside and it is apparently both when we are not home and when we are home but not looking.

This has gone on in spurts ever since we moved in, with seemingly no connection to any changes in routine, schedule, etc. We have taken RE-housebreaking steps several times with little-to-no-success long term....we go for a few weeks pee-free and then they are at it again, and we do believe it is both of them, some of it is definitely of a marking nature...up high where Dali would be doing it and I have walked into a room & surprised Dora in full squat at least twice.

To add to the mess...for the last 4 months, we have been enlisted as dog sitter for our recently divorced daughter's Pomeranian, a 18 month old neutered male who makes no pretense of being housebroken, at all, ever. He also refuses to use the doggy door at all, so if we can not watch him every SECOND indoors, he stays outside, no matter how badly it breaks my heart to leave him there. He is routinely here probably 3 days out of every 7, including 2 nights, he sleeps in a crate indoors for the over-nights. IF we had him 24/7, we might be able to housebreak him, or at least get him to use the doggy door, but our daughter will not let him go and the alternative to him being here is being crated constantly at her house while she works.

Dora adopted him at first, but has now decided that he is "grown-up", I think, her interest in mothering him has stopped. She is still freindly with him, though and clearly more accepting of him being here than Dali. Dali is a gentle soul, and while he occassionally will play a little with him, he warns him away from favorite toys, etc. and is very competitive for our attention with him.

The final thing of note before I close with a PLEA for advice is the pack order here. While my husband & I do try mightily to maintain OUR dominant roles, Dali and Dora seem to change their positions in relationship to each other 3 or 4 times a day. Dora is much smarter than Dali in most ways, a little bigger in size and much more territorial, she totally comes unglued if she sees a squirrel or, heaven forbid ..a CAT through the window and she also has twice caught birds inside our yard and brought them in.

Dali wants to do nothing other than play ball, snuggle stuffed animals or kiss, constantly. Dora chases him and tackles him while he runs for the ball, she would not chase it herself, ever, if her life depended on it...she is almost disdainful about it. All that being said, Dali always eats first...he will run her into another ROOM and bark at her, do all sorts of comical posturing in front of her as if to say "stay away" BEFORE he eats, and she defers to him....to his face, but will come in and stand a few feet away from him staring at him while he eats a FEW more bites until he chases her away AGAIN... she is much more food motivated than he is, and already slightly fat at 2. Is he AFRAID of her or being dominant ?? ??

He also takes all of her toys, treats etc away from her and she will bark hysterically but wag her tail joyously as he steals them as if she is just thrilled about it and even comes leaping merrily over to tell US....we have tried to take them away from him and give them back to her and she seems to enjoy letting him steal them more than she does having them.......she delights in being "bullied.".....until SHE decides she wants them and she rushes him and takes them back decisively, and he literally gives them up as meekly as a lamb. When she is disgusted with his ball playing and has tackled him and knocked him 2 feet into the air a time or two, HE will go clean around the other side of the yard to try to creep up to his ball with out her seeing him. She is just soooo much less "domesticated" than he is, he get's TERRIBLY upset if we even raise our voices slightly, she acts like we are speaking Latin to her no matter how upset we are.

Is the house-marking nightmare because of pack order confusion?? Are they just untrainable??? I abhor the idea of crating them or leaving them outside when we are not home, they are such HAPPY little dogs and such a joy except for this. Any suggestions,( including drug recommendations for the humans ) advice...deeply appreciated.

A small postscript...we posted this message on another board that apparently does not get a lot of visitors. We received one response..."crate training" literally, that was IT. We have crate trained the dogs in conjunction with remedial housebreaking, they were crated except when we were present, etc...they stopped using the house for a toilet for about a month AFTER we stopped crating them during absences, but then they were at it again. We are self-employed and out of the house sometimes for 6-7 hrs a day, we bought the house we are living in largely because of the dogs...the doggy door and the big, safe backyard with the 8 foot wooden fence. We absolutely adore them and are totoally at a loss here. They are ENERGETIC dogs and the thought that we have to choose between crating them permanently or living in a toilet is enough to make me weep...

Again thank you for any advice or insights.

elegy · 09-27-2005, 08:16 PM

well, crate training is pretty much the standard advice for potty training problems. and marking, in my opinion, is at least in part a potty training problem. the more times they are allowed to make mistakes as to where they're pottying, the more likely they are to repeat that mistake. if you're not home, the only way to prevent it is to restrict access. dogs rarely soil their dens (unless they were mill pups who had no other options) so crate training usually works pretty well.

my suspicion is that they have their pack order pretty well established. dog pack orders are a lot more fluid than most people think. one dog might be dominant in one situation but the other might be dominant in other situations. and that's fine and normal.

what are you using to clean up their messes? if you're not using an enzymatic cleaner, i'd check into one. other stuff doesn't completely get rid of the smell and even if you can't smell it, the dogs can. you might also consider getting them both checked for urinary tract infections. if one is peeing in the house due to an infection, the other could start peeing inside because the other is (i've had this happen with my cats).

another thought, especially for the pom, is to use a belly band.

do you ever make the point of taking them out to potty? i know they have free access to the yard but i wonder if "official potty trips" perhaps even on leash would help to give them structure?

this is all disorganized mumbo-jumbo thoughts but hopefully something will jump out at you to try! good luck. housebreaking issues are a real headache.

Barrett · 09-27-2005, 09:32 PM

I agree with perhaps trying to take them outside to potty with a purpose several times a day. Any time you see them potty outside give them an extra special treat that they really like and give them lots of praise. You can try to give a command like " go potty" or " do your buisness" and then a treat and praise the second they finish. It will help them understand what the treat and praise are for.

Definetly look for a good enzymatic cleaner to use on your carpets and walls. I used Natures Miracle when my puppies made pee mistakes. It comes in small squirt bottles or gallon jugs. I used the gallon jug in my carpet cleaner and went over the spots over and over again to be sure it reached to carpet pad. Once it dries the dog should not be able to smell the pee anymore and won't want to go there again. One of my pups kept going in the same corner of my bedroom so I bought a boundry spray that is used to keep cats and dogs off the furniture. It is supposed to smell bad to the animal but is pretty orderless to humans ( once it dries). It doesn't stink but it smells funny at first. Anyway, I sprayed that right on the carpet where my pup was sneaking off to and I never had a problem there again. I made sure the carpet was steam cleaned many times before I sprayed the boundry spray. I also read the instructions on the can to be sure it was color safe for carpets and tried it on the carpet in the closet before I went spray happy.

calgal · 09-27-2005, 10:01 PM

First off welcome to GP. You are great for trying all kinds of ways to help house train your dogs and asking for opinions. You have been given some great ideas already, but I guess I can add a couple. You said you own your own business, so why can't you take your dogs to work with you? Keep them crated and take them for potty breaks and play? If that doesn't work for you then maybe you could find someone who dog sits and can come take them out of the crate every 2 or 3 hours for potty, play & walk. Maybe you could take one of the smallest bedrooms, take the carpet out and put tile or linoleum down and make a cute little room for them. Put up a really tall gate (or two)that Dora can't climb out of. Then put the water in one of those self feeders so they can't knock it over, and the wee-wee pad, stuffed kongs, toys, crates and blankies.

09-26-2005, 02:42 PM	#1 (permalink)
currentclassics Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1 Rep Power: 0	Dali & Dora & PP Here There & Everywhere Please excuse the length of the post, we have some serious issues to address with our pets, and I thought I should establish some background. My husband and I have 2 dogs, Dali, a Rat Terrier male, aged 2yrs & 11 mos. and Dora, a Jack Russell/Rat Terrier mix female, aged 2 years & 9mos.I got Dali at 8weeks from a breeder, Dora was adopted from a co-worker at about 12 weeks, he was obviously neglecting her, leaving her alone in his apartment for 12hr stretches, then complaining about "the mess she was making", etc. I corrected him about his treatment of her and he suggested I take her. Her and Dali took to each other fine, although I think she intimidated him some initially. They were both neutered/spayed at about 6/7 mos. I lived in a large, upstairs apartment with the 2 of them until they were about 12 mos. old. My 24 yr. old son shared the apt. with me, also. Prior to getting Dora, Dali had become accustomed to spending his alone time in the apartment confined in one of those large, collapsible, 6 sided gate enclosures, his water, toys and a puppy pad inside with him. The first time we put Dora inside with him, she immediately climbed UP and over and that was that. They both did fairly well in their housebreaking progress, they were walked 6-9 times daily by myself or my son. I did leave the puppy pads in the bathroom when they were at home alone and any toileting accidents were generally confined to the pads by the time they were about a year old. Dali and Dora are VERY, VERY active, exhuberant dogs, they never walk, they run,etc, just full of life. Dali was a much more affectionate puppy and much easier to engage than Dora. The neglect she suffered when she was small REALLY showed all the way up until she was about 2. She did not seem want to be petted or held except occassionally when SHE initiated it, and it was extremely difficult to get her to even LOOK up in your direction when called. Dali would be right on our heels, eager to play or just for attention in general and she would be across the romm, frantically chewing a raw-hide treat. They were both horribly difficult to leash train for their walks. I married the fella I had been seeing since they were tiny when they were about a year old, we moved into a LARGE, one-level house with mostly glass walls, floor-to-ceiling. It has a doggy door that they utilized immediately and a very large, fenced back yard. They ADORE the house and are BOTH very happy dogs now, Dora has become almost as eager for affection as Dali, though she seems sort of awkward and almost stiff about it, poor thing. They are both constantlyrunning in and out of the house through their door...any little noise, etc and a lot of times, it seems they are just running to and fro for fun. When we are home, we try to keep our eye on them & virtually every time we see them urinating, it is outside, though there is plenty of evidence that proves otherwise inside and it is apparently both when we are not home and when we are home but not looking. This has gone on in spurts ever since we moved in, with seemingly no connection to any changes in routine, schedule, etc. We have taken RE-housebreaking steps several times with little-to-no-success long term....we go for a few weeks pee-free and then they are at it again, and we do believe it is both of them, some of it is definitely of a marking nature...up high where Dali would be doing it and I have walked into a room & surprised Dora in full squat at least twice. To add to the mess...for the last 4 months, we have been enlisted as dog sitter for our recently divorced daughter's Pomeranian, a 18 month old neutered male who makes no pretense of being housebroken, at all, ever. He also refuses to use the doggy door at all, so if we can not watch him every SECOND indoors, he stays outside, no matter how badly it breaks my heart to leave him there. He is routinely here probably 3 days out of every 7, including 2 nights, he sleeps in a crate indoors for the over-nights. IF we had him 24/7, we might be able to housebreak him, or at least get him to use the doggy door, but our daughter will not let him go and the alternative to him being here is being crated constantly at her house while she works. Dora adopted him at first, but has now decided that he is "grown-up", I think, her interest in mothering him has stopped. She is still freindly with him, though and clearly more accepting of him being here than Dali. Dali is a gentle soul, and while he occassionally will play a little with him, he warns him away from favorite toys, etc. and is very competitive for our attention with him. The final thing of note before I close with a PLEA for advice is the pack order here. While my husband & I do try mightily to maintain OUR dominant roles, Dali and Dora seem to change their positions in relationship to each other 3 or 4 times a day. Dora is much smarter than Dali in most ways, a little bigger in size and much more territorial, she totally comes unglued if she sees a squirrel or, heaven forbid ..a CAT through the window and she also has twice caught birds inside our yard and brought them in. Dali wants to do nothing other than play ball, snuggle stuffed animals or kiss, constantly. Dora chases him and tackles him while he runs for the ball, she would not chase it herself, ever, if her life depended on it...she is almost disdainful about it. All that being said, Dali always eats first...he will run her into another ROOM and bark at her, do all sorts of comical posturing in front of her as if to say "stay away" BEFORE he eats, and she defers to him....to his face, but will come in and stand a few feet away from him staring at him while he eats a FEW more bites until he chases her away AGAIN... she is much more food motivated than he is, and already slightly fat at 2. Is he AFRAID of her or being dominant ?? ?? He also takes all of her toys, treats etc away from her and she will bark hysterically but wag her tail joyously as he steals them as if she is just thrilled about it and even comes leaping merrily over to tell US....we have tried to take them away from him and give them back to her and she seems to enjoy letting him steal them more than she does having them.......she delights in being "bullied.".....until SHE decides she wants them and she rushes him and takes them back decisively, and he literally gives them up as meekly as a lamb. When she is disgusted with his ball playing and has tackled him and knocked him 2 feet into the air a time or two, HE will go clean around the other side of the yard to try to creep up to his ball with out her seeing him. She is just soooo much less "domesticated" than he is, he get's TERRIBLY upset if we even raise our voices slightly, she acts like we are speaking Latin to her no matter how upset we are. Is the house-marking nightmare because of pack order confusion?? Are they just untrainable??? I abhor the idea of crating them or leaving them outside when we are not home, they are such HAPPY little dogs and such a joy except for this. Any suggestions,( including drug recommendations for the humans ) advice...deeply appreciated. A small postscript...we posted this message on another board that apparently does not get a lot of visitors. We received one response..."crate training" literally, that was IT. We have crate trained the dogs in conjunction with remedial housebreaking, they were crated except when we were present, etc...they stopped using the house for a toilet for about a month AFTER we stopped crating them during absences, but then they were at it again. We are self-employed and out of the house sometimes for 6-7 hrs a day, we bought the house we are living in largely because of the dogs...the doggy door and the big, safe backyard with the 8 foot wooden fence. We absolutely adore them and are totoally at a loss here. They are ENERGETIC dogs and the thought that we have to choose between crating them permanently or living in a toilet is enough to make me weep... Again thank you for any advice or insights.

09-27-2005, 08:16 PM	#2 (permalink)
elegy Pit Bull Junky Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,073 Rep Power: 110	well, crate training is pretty much the standard advice for potty training problems. and marking, in my opinion, is at least in part a potty training problem. the more times they are allowed to make mistakes as to where they're pottying, the more likely they are to repeat that mistake. if you're not home, the only way to prevent it is to restrict access. dogs rarely soil their dens (unless they were mill pups who had no other options) so crate training usually works pretty well. my suspicion is that they have their pack order pretty well established. dog pack orders are a lot more fluid than most people think. one dog might be dominant in one situation but the other might be dominant in other situations. and that's fine and normal. what are you using to clean up their messes? if you're not using an enzymatic cleaner, i'd check into one. other stuff doesn't completely get rid of the smell and even if you can't smell it, the dogs can. you might also consider getting them both checked for urinary tract infections. if one is peeing in the house due to an infection, the other could start peeing inside because the other is (i've had this happen with my cats). another thought, especially for the pom, is to use a belly band. do you ever make the point of taking them out to potty? i know they have free access to the yard but i wonder if "official potty trips" perhaps even on leash would help to give them structure? this is all disorganized mumbo-jumbo thoughts but hopefully something will jump out at you to try! good luck. housebreaking issues are a real headache.
	__________________ thank you to everyone who supported me during blogathon. i was able to raise $453.60 for pit bull rescue central!

09-27-2005, 09:32 PM	#3 (permalink)
Barrett dachshund Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Washington Posts: 2,758 Rep Power: 156	I agree with perhaps trying to take them outside to potty with a purpose several times a day. Any time you see them potty outside give them an extra special treat that they really like and give them lots of praise. You can try to give a command like " go potty" or " do your buisness" and then a treat and praise the second they finish. It will help them understand what the treat and praise are for. Definetly look for a good enzymatic cleaner to use on your carpets and walls. I used Natures Miracle when my puppies made pee mistakes. It comes in small squirt bottles or gallon jugs. I used the gallon jug in my carpet cleaner and went over the spots over and over again to be sure it reached to carpet pad. Once it dries the dog should not be able to smell the pee anymore and won't want to go there again. One of my pups kept going in the same corner of my bedroom so I bought a boundry spray that is used to keep cats and dogs off the furniture. It is supposed to smell bad to the animal but is pretty orderless to humans ( once it dries). It doesn't stink but it smells funny at first. Anyway, I sprayed that right on the carpet where my pup was sneaking off to and I never had a problem there again. I made sure the carpet was steam cleaned many times before I sprayed the boundry spray. I also read the instructions on the can to be sure it was color safe for carpets and tried it on the carpet in the closet before I went spray happy.

09-27-2005, 10:01 PM	#4 (permalink)
calgal My Yorkster kids! Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: central ca. coast Posts: 6,794 Rep Power: 229	First off welcome to GP. You are great for trying all kinds of ways to help house train your dogs and asking for opinions. You have been given some great ideas already, but I guess I can add a couple. You said you own your own business, so why can't you take your dogs to work with you? Keep them crated and take them for potty breaks and play? If that doesn't work for you then maybe you could find someone who dog sits and can come take them out of the crate every 2 or 3 hours for potty, play & walk. Maybe you could take one of the smallest bedrooms, take the carpet out and put tile or linoleum down and make a cute little room for them. Put up a really tall gate (or two)that Dora can't climb out of. Then put the water in one of those self feeders so they can't knock it over, and the wee-wee pad, stuffed kongs, toys, crates and blankies.

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