White Dobermans

[flyndog]

Any opinions about breeding white dogs? Is this soon to be a new color standard?

[DutchLove67]

the albino or 'white' Doberman. These are offered as 'rare' and exotic (and pricey!) by disreputable breeders. These dogs almost always have serious physical and behavioral problems. Albinos have photosensitivity to sunlight. They have problems related to sight due to this photosensitivity which can be reflected in temperament or insecurity issues (e.g. hyper-aggression and fear-biting). Their skin often burns and blisters when exposed to the sun. The white color is a disqualification under the Doberman breed standard and these dogs cannot compete in the AKC show ring (although the AKC will register these dogs). I doubt they will ever be recognized. I think their nothing but a fad breed

[stormhausdobermans]

[font=Lucida Console]Well I just joined and this probably isn't the BEST way to make friends however I will speak on this matter.

For about 4-5 years now I have been researching and involved with owners and breeders of white Dobermans. I myself own two Dobermans that carry the white gene. One is white factored (one of his parents was white) and one is Z-factored (the white gene is in the 5th/6th generation of her pedigree, two dogs are white.)
I've read all the bad stuff, that they have problems getting sunburned, temperament problems, are deaf, blind, etc. then I started talking to owners of these dogs.
Squinting in bright sunlight isn't what I would call a white Doberman problem. My fawn/white HAZEL eyed APBT squints occasionally. I know several white Dobe owners that have had their dogs CERF'd and they have had Normal results. I can't honestly say I've heard of a white Dobe that is deaf either. Sunburning is another problem that is said happens with whites. I know of a lady in SC now that has two whites and they bask in the sun. I know several people that own these dogs and live in California, Arizona, Texas...the hottest (sunniest) places.
The temperament issues I believe are the BIGGEST "problem" but as I've said more then once the COLOR of the dog shouldn't be blamed, HOWEVER the BREEDER should of these poor tempered dogs. Many of the white Dobermans that are listed to have poor temperament are bred from parents with poor temperaments. ANY breeder (white or not) that breeds poor quality dogs (Doberman or not) will result in poor tempered offspring.

I think I'm through rambling however this is my opinion on these dogs. The first time I seen a white Doberman in person it was Mid-July in SC (not the lady I spoke of earlier) and the dogs where running and playing like any other Doberman. They where very approachable (not shy or fearful) and that made me realize I couldn't judge a WHOLE color on the few poorly bred dogs that will be shown on the anti white websites.

I have several pictures of white Dobermans on a webpage I have created. [mod edit: please put self promoting websites in related offers websites and requests forum. see forum rules. Thanks]

[Carrie]

Welcome to GP.

I'm a Doberman fancier, myself, along with a few others on the forum. The breeder I got my Doberman from has been breeding fine Dobermans for about 40 years, has produced many, many world famous champions, has some had dogs who were top dog in the country as well as top Doberman in the country. Her lines go way back to some unbelievably impressive dogs the world over. She, herself has recently won top breeder of the year award for all breeds as well as top breeder of the year award for Dobermans. She breeds outstanding dogs which she has striven for, for many years. I also know several other top breeders of Dobermans. And I can tell you that there is NO WAY that they would go along with promoting the breeding of WHITE DOBERMANS. No self respecting Doberman breeder with ethics or concern for the breed would.....unless they just don't know any better, which may be your case.

Breeding dogs whether they're white or not.....which do not conform to the standards set forth by breed clubs is unethical and deleterious to the breed. The purposeful breeding of white Dobermans is especially a shame.

There were white Dobermans in the past, (freaks of nature) which were of dreadfully poor temperament and extremely poor health. These genes are in ALL of them. Albinism, (I know, some are not) is a sad situation for any living being. To perpetuate this is despecible. Even if some breeders of whites think that they can get around some of these problems, they're still breeding dogs who are not recognized by any breed club anywhere in the world, that are disqualifications. There's a reason for that.

So, if one truly has a love for the breed and the breed's future, one would not be breeding white Dobermans. That is my opinion. I can't help it if it isn't what someone wants to hear. Nothing too personal, but I would hope for more education for people who are promoting this practice.

[fireworksinjuly]

Breeders are suposed to "better the breed". How can you better a breed when intentionally breeding their faults? White is considered a fault.

I mean if it happens as a freak of nature, so be it- It can happen in any species. Where I used to live we had a family of albino squirels running around. But why would you intentionally do it?

[Ritz459]

Originally Posted by fireworksinjuly

Breeders are suposed to "better the breed". How can you better a breed when intentionally breeding their faults? White is considered a fault.

I mean if it happens as a freak of nature, so be it- It can happen in any species. Where I used to live we had a family of albino squirels running around. But why would you intentionally do it?

I agree. You shouldn't be breeding for albino-isim or whatever. Especially if it isn't in the breed standard. White dogs (albino) do have a different set of health problems than other colors. I mean, White Boxers are prone to deafness. A Reverse Brindle Boxer isn't.
StormDobe said earlier that he saw two white Dobes basking in the sun. Well sure they can bask in the sun, but you have to lather them up with sunscrean first and if you don't, boom, your dog is sunburnt. It isn't just like that in Dobes, it is like that in other white, smoothcoated breeds.
So I guess I'm saying...is the color really worth that much to slather the Dobes with new health problems?

[Carrie]

And it's not only because of the whiteness. It's because there just happened to be whites way back when which just happened to be riddled with health and temperament problems and those are passed along the genetic lines.

[GSD]

I'd respect a white Dobe breeder as much as I would a white shepherd breeder, or cockapoo, or shiapoo breeder for that matter. Anyone who's read my responses to these in the past know exactly how I feel and why.

[stormhausdobermans]

As I said when I posted my "defense" for the white Dobermans I didn't expect to make friends with it.

I've read all the DPCA supporters "operation white out" sites. In one it states that when Padula's Queen Shebah was first registered there was a study did on these dogs to see what medical problems they had. The problems I have with this study? 1. Both the white dogs they used where females that had been raised in horrible conditions and where probably inbred so they would be white. 2. Out of these two white dogs all their puppies where black/tan offspring. How can you study the effects of a puppy being WHITE if all the offspring are black/tan?

Since then there have been no "studies" done to prove how this color has gotten better (or worst) over the past nearly 30 years. White Doberman breeders I know do not breed white to white (just as "reputable" breeders don't breed blue to blue, fawn to fawn, or blue to fawn). They will breed their whites to white factored or non factored dogs. Many have their dogs vWD, Cardio, OFA'd, CERF'd, thyroid tested, and DO compete in activities with them. Agility, Obedience, Rally, etc.

Are there horrible white Dobe breeders? OF COURSE! But there are also irresponisble, non caring, just out to make a buck breeders that breed the "NORMAL" colors. There's even a breeder of Doodleman pinschers who uses her two purebreds Champion pedigree to sell the mixed breed puppies. IMO THAT should be the true concern of the show breeders, these people that don't have whites but are creating Doodleman pinschers with Champion pedigrees.

Also someone stated that they could bask in the sun after they've been lathered(think that's the word you used) in sunscreen. There are many white dogs are as dark as some fawns. How many fawns do you know of that need sunscreen on them in order to be out in the sun? They DO have PIGMENT. True its not as much pigment as a black but even black dogs left in the sun with no shade for hours will turn bronzy. ANY PERSON that is in the sun for a long time without shade will sunburn, white, black, purple....it will happen.

Thirty years have past and many DEDICATED people have got involved in trying to make this color as close to the breed standard as possible. Yea in the standard the whites are disqualified but we are still wanting to breed towards the standard in every other way. There are many white breeders I don't agree with but there are several I've known personally for many years and I respect what they are doing, trying to put a public face on these dogs and get them into AKC events more, rather then push them to the back and treat them like deformed stepchildren you lock away in the basement.

They are Dobermans....its a simple as that.

Kia

[stormhausdobermans]

Also, I am not trying to change anyones opinions or views on these dogs.

That is your personal choice.

I am just posting MY opinion and views and why I don't agree with the DPCA's Operation White Out.

Kia

[Crossfire Bulldogs]

I think we've gone rounds on the topic of the whites before and most already know my opinion on it as well but.......

I've not yet heard of or seen a single albino-factored animal who has earned a championship or even any conformation points in AKC-sanctioned shows. Even though factored animals are eligible for conformation competitions. In my opinion as well as many others there hasn't been anything proven yet about the conformation of these animals which would better the breed or for that matter any honest evaluation of their structural qualities being carried out.

Everyone here is entitled to their own opinions and views on this topic as well as any other and I appreciate you taking the time to voice your opinions on the issue Kia.

[Crossfire Bulldogs]

Doh! I forgot to put in my question! Sorry about that!

It has been some time since I last looked over the stats so correct me if I'm wrong please! Has there been a title or AKC points in conformation taken by an albino factored dog to date?

[flyndog]

So there are Doberman fanciers working to make white an acceptable color standard. Thanks for the info.
Kit

[Silverke]

I think its the same discussion as many Years ago between the colored German Sheperds and the white sheperds. But I find the dogs must be white with good black pigmentation and not a real albino.Albinos are a genetic fault in every breed with many disease for the animals.

[doberkim]

well, kia -
I guess you can turn up anywhere

yes kia - tell us about how you are bettering the breed .

what health testing have you done before you stud out your terminator?
what titles have you obtained? what independent evaluations of your dogs structure have you received that lead you to believe that he is a superior specimen that needs to reproduce and save the doberman?

how many dogs have you produced? what titles have they obtained in any venue?
what dogs of yours are in the OFA database?

where is lucas?
where is bosco?

how many dobermans have you owned (and then sold off)?

and do you finally understand that having a Z in the dogs name doesn't make it a Z-factored dog?

but then again - youre offering to TRADE your dog for any old bitch -- cause this is where and how responsible breeders do it, right?

http://www.buybelowcost.com/index.as...m=&adid=143298

because your stud is so amazing, you need to find bitches to breed him to on this place?


http://www.buybelowcost.com/index.as...m=&adid=143299

any color, as long as it has a uterus and can pump out puppies, right?





white will never be an accepted doberman color. these dogs are albinos.